Is this a FAKE Mary Groat?

[Coinery]

Has anyone ever heard of or seen a fake Mary Groat?

Could I please have your considered opinions please!

The seller says he found this Metal Detecting, and has been a dealer for 30 years with his own shop, and apparently has great experience in this field, and has also shown this to a 'top dealer'. He's invited me to take it to Spinks or DNW to authenticate.

It has all the complex Mary buckles, but is lighter than it should be at 1.64g. It is your typical hammered thin, making me rationalize it is neither a cast nor electrotype, though I'm open to all thoughts good or bad.

I personally am uncomfortable with it, what do you think of the general quality of the design?

[Coinery]

[Coinery]

[Rob]

I don't see anything that screams wrong, but I don't have a database of Mary groat dies to compare. The weight is light at 18% down but you can allow for some loss from the scrapes and wear - say 5%. The question therefore is what would the normal weight range be? The three examples in Brady were 1.91g, 2.12g & 2.12g, so on that statistically insignificant basis +/-5% ish around the theoretical 2.01g.

If you aren't happy don't buy it. It doesn't have any redeeming features anyway, other than as a gap filler.

[Coinery]

Is there any possibility of Edward's base issue flans creeping into the Mary coinage? This coin also doesn't test positive for high-grade silver. Having said that, the test I use isn't sensitive enough to pick-up .500, and I also don't know where the test becomes positive above .500.

[Rob]

Is there any possibility of Edward's base issue flans creeping into the Mary coinage? This coin also doesn't test positive for high-grade silver. Having said that, the test I use isn't sensitive enough to pick-up .500, and I also don't know where the test becomes positive above .500.

Unlikely. You had nearly three years of fine silver output at the end of Ed. VI when every attempt was made to restore the silver quality to the original standard. Just leave it and move on.

[TomGoodheart]

I've not noticed any fake Mary groats and, like Rob, can't see anything obviously wrong here. But I agree, if you're uncertain, leave it. Better to have a coin you're happy with than one that you doubt, irrespective of what others say.

[Coinery]

Thank-you both! I agree it's either a good fake or genuine. I'm worried for all Mary groats, as this coin is light, waxy, and doesn't test positive for silver! It has to have been hammered, I think but, the metal, it shouts fake!

[azda]

Thank-you both! I agree it's either a good fake or genuine. I'm worried for all Mary groats, as this coin is light, waxy, and doesn't test positive for silver! It has to have been hammered, I think but, the metal, it shouts fake!

Leave it and move on Stuart

[Coinery]

Thank-you both! I agree it's either a good fake or genuine. I'm worried for all Mary groats, as this coin is light, waxy, and doesn't test positive for silver! It has to have been hammered, I think but, the metal, it shouts fake!

Leave it and move on Stuart

Therein lies the problem, you see, I am in possession of it!

[TomGoodheart]

Meh ... I reviewed recent ebay listings (after finally finding where in the new format they hid the bloody 'Completed listings' option!) and, while I'm not experienced with this series, there's no clear sign to make me think it's not authentic. The face is a bit odd, but Mary's chin is usually a bit sharp and I wonder if it's been lightly tooled (or just scraped) along the nose to change the profile slightly. It is a bit scratched.

Bottom line is, if it were me and I wasn't happy I'd ask for my money back. If it had been £20-£30 I'd chalk it up as an interesting buy, but at a proper price I'd want to be comfortable with my purchase and would expect a decent seller to feel the same ..

[nickr]

For my money it is a fake made from dies that have been made from a genuine coin or an old die that has been reused. It is not a modern copy and it would be a very rare die that was not blundered after being finished with. The close ups of the edge just doesnt look right for a circulated coin that has been cleaned in a bad way. The only exception would be a coin cleaned by heating in a vacuum with an oxygen getter and there arent many people who can do this (or at least risk it with a coin going to be sold) I did a few test pieces about 5 years ago but on Roman stuff from a hoard that were all the same mintage so different cleaning methods were tested on them as none were rare. The problem is the oxygen getter may sputter on to the coin and give strange readings. The cleaned coins often have a shiny blackened finish, not unlike pewter.

[Coinery]

For my money it is a fake made from dies that have been made from a genuine coin or an old die that has been reused. It is not a modern copy and it would be a very rare die that was not blundered after being finished with. The close ups of the edge just doesnt look right for a circulated coin that has been cleaned in a bad way. The only exception would be a coin cleaned by heating in a vacuum with an oxygen getter and there arent many people who can do this (or at least risk it with a coin going to be sold) I did a few test pieces about 5 years ago but on Roman stuff from a hoard that were all the same mintage so different cleaning methods were tested on them as none were rare. The problem is the oxygen getter may sputter on to the coin and give strange readings. The cleaned coins often have a shiny blackened finish, not unlike pewter.

Thanks for your contribution nickr, and interesting too!

[Coinery]

So, buyers beware, this is a non-silver copy of a Mary Groat!

It's had the pleasure of Rob's company for a few days, and comes out poorly on a specific gravity test, so fails on many counts.

I'm inclined to agree with nickr that it's contemporary, it just has all the 'right' kind of grazes and the complex multi-directional bends of a 'natural' burial, if you know what I mean!

I'd appreciate it if anyone has a Mary groat, or comes across one in the future, that they might check them off against the dies on here, as it would be interesting to find out the scale of these copies. I will be marking off anything that stands out as defining die indicators (against known genuine examples) and be posting it onto the forgery network.

Many thanks to all the contributers AND Rob! What a bummer!

Edited November 6, 2012 by Coinery

[Paulus]

Here's mine, 1.8g, hope it's okay!

[Coinery]

Here's mine, 1.8g, hope it's okay!

Totally different dies to the other fake, Paulus!

[azda]

I think ski has one as his Avatar?

[copper123]

The lions and the lis look different on the forgery less clear and convincing.

Overall apart from marys chin quite a convincing coin though.

At least we know to look out for them now

[ski]

I think ski has one as his Avatar?

my avatar is of a phillip and mary sixpence dave.

[azda]

I think ski has one as his Avatar?

my avatar is of a phillip and mary sixpence dave.

I knew it was Mary though lol

[Coinery]

The lions and the lis look different on the forgery less clear and convincing.

Overall apart from marys chin quite a convincing coin though.

At least we know to look out for them now

I 100% agree with your thoughts, copper123! There is a small Mary groat die-study on its way! I'm hoping to find a couple others of the copy to aid in recognition of good and bad alike!

So, please, absolutely ANY good quality pictures of M groats, please PM me, I'd like to catalogue ALL the dies...it can't be that hard!

That doesn't include your avatar, ski!

[ski]

That doesn't include your avatar, ski!

Aw..its such a lovely coin

[ski]

I knew it was Mary though lol

known as bloody mary.......due to the fact she found the bishop of worcester saucy ..not

[azda]

You could maybe borrow this Stuart

320944127768

[Coinery]

You could maybe borrow this Stuart

320944127768

Cheers, Dave! I'll send him a friendly note once the dust has settled/resolved with the 'eBay case' re this copy!