1853 Currency Groat - Has Anybody Ever Actually Seen One?

[Peckris]

Hi Rob yes they must have been struck to order, can you possible give me a reference or better still a link to the circular re the Cu/Bronze?

So off topic a bit; for the 1853 bronzed versus copper pieces kindly have a look at these three halfpenny obverses. I think 2 are Cu and one is bronzed I have included 2 pics of each using different lighting in a vain attempt to give a better feel for their colour. The bronzing can introduce a micro pitting in parts what do you think? The last coin obverse has to load separately - see next e2 1853 halfpenny bronze oval obv compressed.jpg

That second obverse doesn't look like any I've seen before! The moulding around the facial features just isn't 'Wyon' enough for me - for example, the crease of the cheek/mouth is almost missing, and there is a line within the eye/nose contour that simply shouldn't be there. I wonder what is the story behind that one? You can't put the differences down to mere lighting or photography.

I am somewhat dubious of the practice of using edges and periphery to judge a coin as proof. Even though "great care" is supposedly taken with proofs, I think some may come off a bit sloppy with regards to planchet prep, and even die prep and maintenance, not to mention strike.

I think there's something in that, but it only works one way : a less than perfect edge/rim/teeth COULD be a proof as you say, but coins that are 'prooflike' are only so in relation to fields and design not to edge/rim etc, which cannot be 'prooflike' as their treatment on genuine proofs is very different.

[Martinminerva]

Here are the four 1853's that I have culled pictures of from ebay over the last 10 years or so (reverses only, I'm afraid). 1853 groat a displays that same "bulbous" 5 and damaged/repaired 3 as I mentioned above, yet would appear to be a currency specimen: some of the beads are heavily doubled - and indeed so are some of the letters. I suppose a proof die could then be put into service afterwards for currency strikes?

1853 groat b certainly looks currency! But I guess both of these first two could be heavily circulated proofs? c and d would seem to be proof, albeit c rather toned.

Does this help, or confuse the issue?! (by the way, they seem to have been attached in reverse order d, c, b, a. !!)

[VickySilver]

Thanks for the images.

Hmm, to my eyes, the first appears proof despite the edges - too much cameo contrast and device detail & not what at least I have seen in early currency proof-like strikes of other dates. Coincraft 2000 states, and I agree that there minor obv. detail [and IMO reverse as well] differences; Davies no commentary. Plain edges should exclude currency and are possibly scarcer but I would NOT make that blanket assumption as that is only theoretical . It is possible as has been suggested that these were not all struck in one run, and several obv and rev. dies may have been used.

"B" looks like the best candidate (and I would buy it if only for reference) for currency, but any wear makes it a tough call. "C" has just too much wear to make a call IMO, and "D" looks to be not as nice a proof IMO as "A".

[Martinminerva]

I'm now attaching a bigger and better resolution image of 1853 groat a from my previous list (attachments were in reverse alphabetical order for some reason!). Do people really think it is a proof? The border beads are significantly doubled in many places and some of the legend letters are doubled/ghosted too. I would have said this was the best bet for a currency specimen due to the dodgy standard of strike. It is milled edge, upright axis like currency specimens (though some proofs have this too of course).

[VickySilver]

The edges and denticles look rude enough for a business strike, the device (Brit) quite hard to tell with wear & the datals look currency. I confess to having looked at the image on iPhone. On laptop it looks currency, although of course always nice to have a mint or near mint state specimen to look at.

Is that one for sale?

[Rob]

This one looks currency to my mind. The 3 is large enough to be a reworked 2. It clearly isn't a cleanly punched 3 made using a full digit punch.

[azda]

Apparently an 1853 sold on eBay Jan this year. If anyone has coin news FEB issue, in the section "a view of the bay" You'll see something mentioned

[Martinminerva]

Can anyone paste in what it says, out of interest? I don't have that Feb issue...

[stephen fass]

I am Steve Fass and collect all small silver below 6d from Chas ll onwards. I purchased an 1853 cueency groat from B.A.Seaby around 40 years ago as I was trying to make up a complete collection of Brit Groats. I genuinely believe this to be currency. I have a milled edge specimen and the beading differs. I still need a plain edge proof (also I need plain edge 1838 I have all others including the 1837 Victoria from DNW auction).

My Groats are housed in a custom made case also bought from Seaby's and will try to get this from the bank in next 2 weeks to photograph 1853 currency.

I would be interested to know is the 1837 William exists in gold

[VickySilver]

Welcome Stephen! Congratulations on a currency 1853 and the pattern (?) Victoria 1837. Can't speak for the plain edge 1838 (proof?).The 1853 proof is not easy to come by, but does seem to appear 1-2 times per year at the major auction houses.

There are quite a few overdates as you are likely aware with IMO top grade 1847/6 perhaps the hardest to come by...

[azda]

Those two side by side as a comparisson would be good

[VickySilver]

Ah yes, there is also the 1857 and 1862 with their variants. Forgot about them for a moment....Proof 1842 somewhat difficult as well.

Azda, which two?

Edited May 19, 2014 by VickySilver

[placsom]

I have had 4 of this date,,, two I still have,,, 1 x proof with reverse and obverse top to tail,( ie date of rev opposite top of head ),,, also what i think is currency issue with rev and ob top to top,, later only gf,,,,, other two coins not sure if they were circulated proofs or not,,,, they did have milled edges and condition was poor on 1 and gvf on the other,,,pics can be supplied if required

[placsom]

1853 groats,,,,,, the four 1853 groats i have ever owned,,only 2 I still have and will put pics up,,, die axis of the gf condition one is ^ ^ and milled edge the proof one is v ^ have looked for this date since 1968 and only the four,,,,,, I did put one up on ebay a while ago and one i exchanged for a gvf 1746 halfcrown ( why I dont know),,,, i will put up the pics shortly but as these are aall i have then at moment not for sale,,,,,,, any emails please to placsom@aol.com

[Peckris]

Pictures welcome : http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/7880-posting-pics/

[placsom1]

I find that the 1853 Groat with date looking similar to that of the 1852 groat could well be First Currency issue with some proof's struck, later 1853 groats the date looks similar to that of the 1854 / 1855 issues..

samples I have and one that I did have show the basic 1854 type date,, ie flat topped 5 .

Proof issues i thought had axis reversed ( top ^ to tail v) as I try to show from pics,,ordinary circulation issues were top ^ to Top ^ ( i think )

this is just as I see and have seen from 1 previous 1853 groat.

,, Hope this helps and not confuse,, Barrie

[VickySilver]

Nice! Specimen 3 looks to have been through a bit of it. From the pictures the first is convincing as a possible currency and the second looks proof. Very nice & wish the guides could have such pictures. If you EVER get tired of that first bit, I'd be glad to help. LOL!

[VickySilver]

Postscript: I did manage to secure the 1853 groat from the recent Heritage sale but yet to have it in hand. Graded NGC45 but actually looks a bit nicer, if slightly toned, and comparable to the nicer "currency"  Placsom coin above. Yay! The pattern of Mr. Fass would be exceedingly rare & I think two of those have shown in the last 10 years or so - at times that I just couldn't compete. Interesting to see what competition for such a coin would lead to price wise.

[Guest placsom]

Hi

 I have just purchased a 1853 groat with what  is similar ob to the 1st coin of the three in   Shagreen's  post  but with the ornate type date as in the third  of Shagreen,s  

reverses ,,,,, can we get an Obverse  reverse  die pairing list of these coins we know about  ?

[Martinminerva]

Two undoubtedly currency 1853 groats coming up in next DNW sale on 14th June !

Both have the "curly" 5 and the larger 3.

 

[jaggy]

There is a 1853 groat - MS64 - coming up for auction at Heritage ......

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/world-coins/victoria-4-pence-1853-ms64-ngc-/p/3057-69004.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

[DaveG38]

There was one on ebay a few months back. I was all set to go for it and some barsteward made a preemptive offer for it, and it was taken of the site. So much for sticking to the rules!!

[VickySilver]

Those at DNW hopefully affordable. The Heritage lesser so I'd imagine. 

[Martinminerva]

On 3 June 2017 at 5:29 PM, Martinminerva said:

Two undoubtedly currency 1853 groats coming up in next DNW sale on 14th June !

Both have the "curly" 5 and the larger 3.

 

 

Sold for £700 the pair hammer price.  Anyone on the forum buy them??

[DaveG38]

47 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

 

Sold for £700 the pair hammer price.  Anyone on the forum buy them??

Ridiculous price - I dropped out at £600 and even that was too much in my view. One in much better grade went on ebay recently for around £500.