George IV Crown - Chinese fakes

[seuk]

Received a few copies of the 1822 crown from jinghuashei.com a few days ago.

These are poorly executed and without edge lettering. So no problem in hand at least.

There's a few repeating depressions which may be useful when judging a photo.

Most prominent is a small dot between the forelegs of the horse on reverse.

[Coinery]

Thanks Seuk, they will catch one or two out on eBay (before delivery, at least)! Wouldn't it be great if these kind of 'arrivals' were met with a wall of resistance? Namely, that anytime anyone spotted one of these coins, as identified by your research, they did kindly send a copy-and-paste of the facts for the porentially fooled's judgement. I remember someone doing this for me once (thankyou swissnome [something like that] whomever you are). It would make these things less commercially viable at source if there existed an honourable and reactive/proactive SWAT team! I for myself will use your observations to warn others (should I notice any falling foul)...if you don't mind, that is?

What about, as a start, an eBay account, centrally held by a forum such as this, which provided nothing other than a service to those who are not spotting those individuals who are scamming...maybe even a direct and respected link to eBay central, possibly, that highlights these individuals, without being directly involved, for 'listing extermination'! I think, the message would soon get out there...I presume eBay is where these type of coins would be headed?

Many thanks,

Stuart

[numismatist]

I bet there are hundreds of differant fake coins , from China out there. A major problem is that Ebay seems to want to protect the sellers of fakes. I've tried with a long on line discussion with Ebay's so called trust and safety. One seller had about 20 fakes listed (from Hong Kong)

...laura_5268....and has certainly sold at least six 1763 Shillings. Ebay refused to do anything and will certainly not remove them from Ebay.I was trying to get the address of a seller I bought a fake from and because 60 days had passed they would not give any details and just said "If you have any problem you had better find a Solicitor" I suppose any listing on Ebay giving any warnings about fakes, would be removed in a flash.The George IV Crown dated 1822 ,posted by "seuk" will certainly fool many, as it looks pretty convincing on first sight. I think things will get a lot worse for Coin Collectors in the future and the fakes will get better and better as time passes. I see the BNTA only let members see the fake coins they are notified of, and I wonder why this is ?. It would be interesting to know if the BNTA actually keeps its members informed of fakes as they appear.

[Peter]

Some fakes are obvious but the recent Henry V111 groats identified by Tom and Seuk's crown are quite convincing.(I note the seller of a groat has pulled the sale after I contacted him...I believe he was genuine and not a scammer).

The Northumberland shilling was subject of a recent thread and should I be in the market for one I would do my homework.

Seuk's crown is more worrying being only an average grade and will fool many.

I bought a 1775 evasion 1/4d recently from an antique fair.During the conversation with the dealer I mentioned it was a better example of an evasion.He was quite offended and insisted it was real.He really didn't have a clue and if I had a 10lb cod handy he would of got it square in the chops.....imagine him getting his hands on a load of good fakes.

[azda]

Here's another 2 fakes

[azda]

1822 crown

[seuk]

Luckily or perhaps rather strangely it seems very few British coins have been forged.

I think in regard to ebay that the only way to deal with the problem is that if one of the major numismantic associations took action. As ebay don't have the expertise its difficult for them to cancel an auction as the informer may be mistaken.

Perhaps more helpful would be if the major catalogues (Spink) would include a short description on how to sport the new counterfeits. At the present moment it would probably only need a page or two.

[Flash]

Don't forget it's not just China. I recently perused a collection made by a Spanish gentleman whilst living in Spain in the 70's and 80's. Nearly all the gold and large silver were fakes, some good and some poor, even down to a Kennedy Half Dollar! Apparently he'd been buying from the same Spanish source over the years. As he had recently died and he had assumed his collection to be genuine therefore his family had also assumed so it wasn't a very nice situation.

[Coinery]

Hi Azda, just out of interest, what's giving the geo shilling away? The pictures look good. Is it weight? Material? Edge? Is it obvious in the hand?

[azda]

Hi Azda, just out of interest, what's giving the geo shilling away? The pictures look good. Is it weight? Material? Edge? Is it obvious in the hand?

Edge and weigh, its also a halfcrow. The bottom serif s of all the I's on the OBV look wrong to

Edited November 26, 2011 by azda

[azda]

Don't forget it's not just China. I recently perused a collection made by a Spanish gentleman whilst living in Spain in the 70's and 80's. Nearly all the gold and large silver were fakes, some good and some poor, even down to a Kennedy Half Dollar! Apparently he'd been buying from the same Spanish source over the years. As he had recently died and he had assumed his collection to be genuine therefore his family had also assumed so it wasn't a very nice situation.

Geezus, they should be persuing the seller of the coins to the guy. What a waste of time and money thinking they were genuine all those years and then turn out to be fake

[seuk]

Hi Azda, just out of interest, what's giving the geo shilling away? The pictures look good. Is it weight? Material? Edge? Is it obvious in the hand?

Ealier post on the fake halfcrowns: http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6086&st=0&p=55626&fromsearch=1entry55626

[Coinery]

Thanks Azda & Seuk, I was too quick out the blocks, I did mean HC. Is there a good central resource for all the known fakes, other than platforms such as this, of course?

The contemporary fakes are mostly not a problem to spot, but the modern stuff is pretty damn good in the pictures, I just hope they 're a doddle to spot in the hand???

[Gary D]

Luckily or perhaps rather strangely it seems very few British coins have been forged.

I'm not so sure. There's a gentleman from Hong Kong who regularly every few months comes on ebay with some very high grade ED VII florins and sometimes Shilling always in a nice date run. Now just how many EF+ Florins are there in Hong Kong/China. This has been happening for some years now, may be legit but becoming a worrying trend. Also there seems to be too many wreath crowns washing around especially because of their relitive low mintage, and 1934s there can be 2-3 on at a time.

[numismatist]

Perhaps we should say there are very few differant fake british coins that we have yet noticed.The 1934 Crown only had a mintage of 932 and if you look back say 40/50 years when coin collecting was only just taking off it was only on the very rare occasion that you saw a 1934 crown, now as "Gary D" says they are everywhere. Maybe , just maybe, there are really poor fakes that are easy to spot,very good fakes that we are learning about but are very hard to spot, and incredible quality fakes that are so good ,we do not know they exist, and they are fooling everyone ?

[Mat]

Perhaps we should say there are very few differant fake british coins that we have yet noticed.The 1934 Crown only had a mintage of 932 and if you look back say 40/50 years when coin collecting was only just taking off it was only on the very rare occasion that you saw a 1934 crown, now as "Gary D" says they are everywhere. Maybe , just maybe, there are really poor fakes that are easy to spot,very good fakes that we are learning about but are very hard to spot, and incredible quality fakes that are so good ,we do not know they exist, and they are fooling everyone ?

Trouble is, if a fake very worn 1934 half crown came on the market, I maybe wouldnt think to consider if it is fake or not. The fakes seem to be coming in fast in all conditions. In the last westminster auction there was a fake vicky jubilee crown in F. No one, even the cataloguer thought to check such a coin for authencity and just stuck it in assuming it would be genuine.

[seuk]

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/

[Generic Lad]

Yep, fakes seem to be everywhere. Its especially sad of all the Chinese fakes of Chinese coins because I could see a thriving collectors market in China in a few years. The problem is, the Chinese have managed to counterfeit their entire culture to the point where no one knows if something is a fake or not.

[numismatist]

Yep, fakes seem to be everywhere. Its especially sad of all the Chinese fakes of Chinese coins because I could see a thriving collectors market in China in a few years. The problem is, the Chinese have managed to counterfeit their entire culture to the point where no one knows if something is a fake or not.

[numismatist]

Suppose one good thing is Fake Coins dont kill you, like all the fake medicine thats coming out of China does and even the NHS in the UK cannot normally tell that from the real thing.

[Peter]

Suppose one good thing is Fake Coins dont kill you, like all the fake medicine thats coming out of China does and even the NHS in the UK cannot normally tell that from the real thing.

If the Chinese tightened their ship and produced products equal to the standards required we would have more of a problem.As it is we still have choices and I will go for UK products whenever possible.

I was aghast when I found out Dr Marten boots/shoes were now made in China.A bit of searching and a company from Northampton (Solovair) makes the same boot (without the DM logo).They used to make the soles for the UK D.M's.

My wife has got me a pair for Xmas....as I relive my youth

My eldest daughter is still after a coloured pair of DM's though...listen Solovair...with proper marketing and advertising you could take this market.

[Red Riley]

Suppose one good thing is Fake Coins dont kill you, like all the fake medicine thats coming out of China does and even the NHS in the UK cannot normally tell that from the real thing.

If the Chinese tightened their ship and produced products equal to the standards required we would have more of a problem.As it is we still have choices and I will go for UK products whenever possible.

I was aghast when I found out Dr Marten boots/shoes were now made in China.A bit of searching and a company from Northampton (Solovair) makes the same boot (without the DM logo).They used to make the soles for the UK D.M's.

My wife has got me a pair for Xmas....as I relive my youth

My eldest daughter is still after a coloured pair of DM's though...listen Solovair...with proper marketing and advertising you could take this market.

Oh dear, I can see it now, DMs, Levi Sta-prest, Ben Sherman shirt, skinhead haircut - yeuk!

[Red Riley]

Thanks Azda & Seuk, I was too quick out the blocks, I did mean HC. Is there a good central resource for all the known fakes, other than platforms such as this, of course?

The contemporary fakes are mostly not a problem to spot, but the modern stuff is pretty damn good in the pictures, I just hope they 're a doddle to spot in the hand???

There is; http://www.forgerynetwork.com/Default.aspx . I have to say I find it rather a muddle and not that user-friendly. Perhaps I'm just not doing it right!

[Coinery]

Thanks Azda & Seuk, I was too quick out the blocks, I did mean HC. Is there a good central resource for all the known fakes, other than platforms such as this, of course?

The contemporary fakes are mostly not a problem to spot, but the modern stuff is pretty damn good in the pictures, I just hope they 're a doddle to spot in the hand???

There is; http://www.forgerynetwork.com/Default.aspx . I have to say I find it rather a muddle and not that user-friendly. Perhaps I'm just not doing it right!

Many thanks, that's a superb and interesting link!

[seuk]

Another modern 1822 crown fake. Looks poorly cast and have milled edge. 38.2 mm - 26.0 gr.

While the Chinese (that I've seen) are smaller 37.4 mm, have plain edge and weights only 21.5 to 22.0 gr.