Edward VII Pennies

[Gary]

I recently bought a small lot of Edward VII pennies, 93 in total and expected them to be a well thumbed through lot. After finding a 1902 low tide in VF condition I realised that maybe this lot had lain around somewhere for a long time and decided to do a little survey.

so just for interest here are the results,

1902 F156 x1, (Lowtide)

1902 F157 x10,

1903 F158 x12,

1904 F159 x3,

1905 F160 x4,

1905 F161 x8,

1906 F162 x16,

1907 F163 x14,

1908 F164A x1,

1908 F165 x1,

1908 F166 x9,

of these the F166 are all light in colour as seen with the H and KN pennies, the other two are dark. Blanks from Heaton or Kings Norton used for the F166?

1909 F168 x5,

1910 F170 x9,

no surprises really regarding the quantities of the various types and years.

unfortunatly no open 3 or 1909, 1 over tooth

[Gary D]

I recently bought a small lot of Edward VII pennies, 93 in total and expected them to be a well thumbed through lot. After finding a 1902 low tide in VF condition I realised that maybe this lot had lain around somewhere for a long time and decided to do a little survey.

so just for interest here are the results,

1902 F156 x1, (Lowtide)

1902 F157 x10,

1903 F158 x12,

1904 F159 x3,

1905 F160 x4,

1905 F161 x8,

1906 F162 x16,

1907 F163 x14,

1908 F164A x1,

1908 F165 x1,

1908 F166 x9,

of these the F166 are all light in colour as seen with the H and KN pennies, the other two are dark. Blanks from Heaton or Kings Norton used for the F166?

1909 F168 x5,

1910 F170 x9,

no surprises really regarding the quantities of the various types and years.

unfortunatly no open 3 or 1909, 1 over tooth

err no supprises, want to check the 164A again. Although supposedly not as rare as the open 3 and 1909 I would suggest easily the most hardest of the Edward VII pennies, probably less than 20 known.

[Gary]

err no supprises, want to check the 164A again. Although supposedly not as rare as the open 3 and 1909 I would suggest easily the most hardest of the Edward VII pennies, probably less than 20 known.

Ok! I know Micheal Freeman lists it as an R5, 50,000 to 100,000 in existence! Gary, where did you get your figure of less than 20 known from?

Have checked it again and yes definitely 1*+ C, Colon after BRITT to tooth and single strand to plume. Have also checked alignment of legend at other points just to make sure and there are various other differences compared to the normal F166 and 164 types.

[Accumulator]

err no supprises, want to check the 164A again. Although supposedly not as rare as the open 3 and 1909 I would suggest easily the most hardest of the Edward VII pennies, probably less than 20 known.

Ok! I know Micheal Freeman lists it as an R5, 50,000 to 100,000 in existence! Gary, where did you get your figure of less than 20 known from?

Have checked it again and yes definitely 1*+ C, Colon after BRITT to tooth and single strand to plume. Have also checked alignment of legend at other points just to make sure and there are various other differences compared to the normal F166 and 164 types.

I'm not sure whether R5 is a fair estimate, but I've been looking for a while and have yet to come across one. Admittedly I've only been checking VF and above coins. I'm going to have to start looking through poorer coins though to fill the gap! So yes, a good find!

[Gary]

Here are some pics of the F164A

In poor condition but identifiable.

there are some other differences but I'm not letting on at the mo The pics are here, work it out

[Gary D]

Here are some pics of the F164A

In poor condition but identifiable.

there are some other differences but I'm not letting on at the mo The pics are here, work it out

Still worth a couple of hundred quid even in that condition.

[Gary]

Still worth a couple of hundred quid even in that condition.

Shocked! A couple of hundred! I'm glad I posted that little survey now, I had no idea. Like I said Micheal Freeman has it down as an R5 which although rare is by no means unobtainable. Sorry to doubt you Gary but does anyone else concur with this valuation?

[argentumandcoins]

Still worth a couple of hundred quid even in that condition.

Shocked! A couple of hundred! I'm glad I posted that little survey now, I had no idea. Like I said Micheal Freeman has it down as an R5 which although rare is by no means unobtainable. Sorry to doubt you Gary but does anyone else concur with this valuation?

You need comparable auction results or dealer prices to give estimates Gary. The only one I knew of was at London and both myself and the old man missed the lot when scanning the catalogue. We only saw it post sale

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/index.php?searchterm=1908+164a&searchtype=1&page=Pastresults

Cheap, very cheap.

The 164A is probably as scarce or scarcer than the 169 so £200 may be on the low side.

[Peter]

To be honest I and the majority of collectors wouldn't know a 164a if it tapped me on the shoulder.

There are probably thousands out there lurking in jars (or my loft).

Making an effort with my Freeman and pennies looks like another job.

[Gary]

You need comparable auction results or dealer prices to give estimates Gary. The only one I knew of was at London and both myself and the old man missed the lot when scanning the catalogue. We only saw it post sale

http://www.londoncoi...age=Pastresults

Cheap, very cheap.

The 164A is probably as scarce or scarcer than the 169 so £200 may be on the low side.

Like I said John, shocked. I had no idea that it was so rare. Thanks for the link by the way, interesting. Live and learn.

To be honest I and the majority of collectors wouldn't know a 164a if it tapped me on the shoulder.

There are probably thousands out there lurking in jars (or my loft).

I think you are right there Peter. It is also difficult to confirm from a pic, if you look at my pic (whole) of the obv then it does not seem to have colon to Tooth, it is only in the close up that it can clearly be seen so not easy for the untrained eye to see. As for lots more out there in Edw VII penny jars you are probably right but they will be all low grade..... I suspect that high grade examples are extremely rare as the variety probably only came to light at a much later date and by that time most had seen considerble circulation. Another reason could be that post 1900 pennies are not that attractive to collectors so little time is spent on studying them for varieties, other then those well known ones such as the 1926 Modified or 1902LT. The minor ones tend to be overlooked.

Info. Just had a look at Freemans again and there is no pic for the 1* Obv.

[Gary]

This is interesting though..

1908 F164

Did a search for an F164 on the link that argentumandcoins posted and lot 1661 is not an F164, its F165. I wonder if that was returned Mind you it only fetched £24 in UNC compared with the other F164 in EF which fetched £40... Maybe the buyer did spot the error.

[davidrj]

This is interesting though..

1908 F164

Did a search for an F164 on the link that argentumandcoins posted and lot 1661 is not an F164, its F165. I wonder if that was returned Mind you it only fetched £24 in UNC compared with the other F164 in EF which fetched £40... Maybe the buyer did spot the error.

There was one in the Crocker Collection

1908 BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare Sold For: £500

a very ugly coin too!

[Gary]

There was one in the Crocker Collection

1908 BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare Sold For: £500

a very ugly coin too!

flippen heck

that makes this poor coin the most valuable one in my collection

thanks for the info David.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Gary

[Gary D]

The Crocker piece in my opinion was well over priced, mine in F is valued at £200 for insurance. I was a bit disapointed as I found it on ebay only a few weeks after the Crocker auction. Still at $2.35 aussie dollars I wasn't robbed.

There was one in the Crocker Collection

1908 BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare Sold For: £500

a very ugly coin too!

flippen heck

that makes this poor coin the most valuable one in my collection

thanks for the info David.

[Rob]

This is interesting though..

1908 F164

Did a search for an F164 on the link that argentumandcoins posted and lot 1661 is not an F164, its F165. I wonder if that was returned Mind you it only fetched £24 in UNC compared with the other F164 in EF which fetched £40... Maybe the buyer did spot the error.

There was one in the Crocker Collection

1908 BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare Sold For: £500

a very ugly coin too!

It's at times like this when you really appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the felt in an empty hole in the tray over a piece of mangled/corroded/flat metal. I'd sooner leave the hole unfilled than have to look at that, after all it isn't unique so a better one will come along one day.

[Gary]

It's at times like this when you really appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the felt in an empty hole in the tray over a piece of mangled/corroded/flat metal.

:lol:

[Gary]

The Crocker piece in my opinion was well over priced, mine in F is valued at £200 for insurance. I was a bit disapointed as I found it on ebay only a few weeks after the Crocker auction. Still at $2.35 aussie dollars I wasn't robbed.

Gary, I have found another auction result you might be interested in, described as "BMC --. F 164A. As Dies 1+C. Gouby B. Fine, extremely rare". It went for £800 with 15 bidders. Dont agree with the grading though!

F164A James Workman Collection

[Accumulator]

The Crocker piece in my opinion was well over priced, mine in F is valued at £200 for insurance. I was a bit disapointed as I found it on ebay only a few weeks after the Crocker auction. Still at $2.35 aussie dollars I wasn't robbed.

Gary, I have found another auction result you might be interested in, described as "BMC --. F 164A. As Dies 1+C. Gouby B. Fine, extremely rare". It went for £800 with 15 bidders. Dont agree with the grading though!

F164A James Workman Collection

We discussed the F164A a while ago on this site...

Here's a really nice example from a fellow member.

[Gary D]

The Crocker piece in my opinion was well over priced, mine in F is valued at £200 for insurance. I was a bit disapointed as I found it on ebay only a few weeks after the Crocker auction. Still at $2.35 aussie dollars I wasn't robbed.

Gary, I have found another auction result you might be interested in, described as "BMC --. F 164A. As Dies 1+C. Gouby B. Fine, extremely rare". It went for £800 with 15 bidders. Dont agree with the grading though!

F164A James Workman Collection

We discussed the F164A a while ago on this site...

Here's a really nice example from a fellow member.

Yes, I think when I sell my collection about 8 years time Colin Cooke will get first dibs.

[Peckris]

The Crocker piece in my opinion was well over priced, mine in F is valued at £200 for insurance. I was a bit disapointed as I found it on ebay only a few weeks after the Crocker auction. Still at $2.35 aussie dollars I wasn't robbed.

Gary, I have found another auction result you might be interested in, described as "BMC --. F 164A. As Dies 1+C. Gouby B. Fine, extremely rare". It went for £800 with 15 bidders. Dont agree with the grading though!

F164A James Workman Collection

We discussed the F164A a while ago on this site...

Here's a really nice example from a fellow member.

Yes, I think when I sell my collection about 8 years time Colin Cooke will get first dibs.

That will do a world of good for the grades (Hush ma mouth!)

[Gary D]

I think I'll have to get my 164a reavaluated

ebay

[Accumulator]

I think I'll have to get my 164a reavaluated

ebay

I was out tonight so had to bid early and really didn't want to lose out. Didn't expect it to go that high though!!

[Accumulator]

To put it in perspective, the Crocker 164A, which was in awful condition and buckled went for £500 and the James Workman 164A, which was also in a poorer condition, went for £800.

[Gary D]

To put it in perspective, the Crocker 164A, which was in awful condition and buckled went for £500 and the James Workman 164A, which was also in a poorer condition, went for £800.

Both the Crocker and Workman pieces are pretty poor making the ebay one much more desirable. I believe there are at least a couple of very high grade examples around that would be far beyond the reach of us mere mortals.

Here's another picture of mine, definitly better than both the Crocker and Workman.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Gary D

[Accumulator]

To put it in perspective, the Crocker 164A, which was in awful condition and buckled went for £500 and the James Workman 164A, which was also in a poorer condition, went for £800.

Both the Crocker and Workman pieces are pretty poor making the ebay one much more desirable. I believe there are at least a couple of very high grade examples around that would be far beyond the reach of us mere mortals.

Here's another picture of mine, definitly better than both the Crocker and Workman.

Yours is very nice! You're right about there being better one's around though, someone on this forum has an AUNC example!