Early milled silver varieties

[rosecoins]

Wouldn’t you think there was a clever lad (or lass) out there who would know how to create, record, store coin varieties (information on) ?

We all use the normal books as reference but the objective of these books isn’t specifically to document die types or varieties. Comments like “different busts exist†or “different shape 0’s exist†or “harp strings†or “billets†etc etc.. (Yes, I love early milled silver) ! In these forums, I enjoy reading where new varieties are either identified or explained and then to look for them myself.

I guess it’s a mammoth job but collectors would surely be the most willing to offer their knowledge. These areas must have been studied individually by different students of the subject in the past and some of it is surely published in journals but wouldn’t it be nice to pull it all together?

I’d love to volunteer but I’ve made a prior arrangement for tonight…… anyone else?

[Hussulo]

It sounds like a plan. Once I get all the standard issues listed on CoinsGB.com I want to add the major rare varieties. After that I plan on adding more minor varieties as well.

So far I have a couple of rare varieties with description and pictures.

Like F192A Penny and

F195 Modified Effigy Penny

Link:

http://www.coinsgb.com/George_V/6-Penny.html

If anyone has pictures of rare coins varieties that should be added and would allow me to use them, I am happy to mention your names and website (if coin related) eg. Courtesy of ... or leave it as anonymous.

Please email pictures and descriptions of variety to: sulo@coinsgb.com

I will upload them as and when I get time.

Thanks Hus

[TomGoodheart]

Sadly, I'm washing my hair or else I'd have loved to oblige ...

But seriously, my first thought was 'Peck'. 700 pages, 50 plates. And then there's Gouby on top. So I'm guessing that for silver it would probably be an equivalent task to identify all the different varieties and possibly a similar sized tome would result.

However, a Wiki sounds plausible. A web based resource open to all to edit and add to with a small editorial team to maintain consistency. Someone with access to publications such as the BNJ or Numismatic Circular could perhaps use the various articles to provide an initial framework that can be expanded?

[Rob]

Sadly, I'm washing my hair or else I'd have loved to oblige ...

But seriously, my first thought was 'Peck'. 700 pages, 50 plates. And then there's Gouby on top. So I'm guessing that for silver it would probably be an equivalent task to identify all the different varieties and possibly a similar sized tome would result.

However, a Wiki sounds plausible. A web based resource open to all to edit and add to with a small editorial team to maintain consistency. Someone with access to publications such as the BNJ or Numismatic Circular could perhaps use the various articles to provide an initial framework that can be expanded?

You need an unholy alliance of collectors who record all the varieties they can find within their specified field and individual(s) with a broad knowledge of the overall details and who is/are willing to pull it all together. A specialist will only be able to do a restricted area as a result of self inflicted choice, so it would need a broadly based person to oversee the operation. One problem is that specialists identify new varieties, but don't necessarily communicate that info to the wider collector base as they will usually want to upgrade to a better example before knowledge of it becomes widespread. I think it is fair to say that is something we are all guilty of. e.g Only today I sold a collector a 1748/7 halfpenny. It's the only one I or the new owner have ever seen and apart from the 1742/0 the only other example of a later Geo.II overstruck date halfpenny as far as we are aware. This isn't recorded anywhere, but is a prime example of the sort of information that would have to be dragged into the public arena. Also, some varieties are suspect with no obvious recorded examples in past sales. How to weed these out is problematic.

Verification of the previously unrecorded varieties is another important consideration. It's far too easy to claim a new variety, and everybody wants the rarity because they are worth more. You only have to look at the numerous posts on this forum to see that is the case. People see what they want to see, not what they have. Human nature is a bit of a b****r.

[Red Riley]

If anyone has pictures of rare coins varieties that should be added and would allow me to use them, I am happy to mention your names and website (if coin related) eg. Courtesy of ... or leave it as anonymous.

Please email pictures and descriptions of variety to: sulo@coinsgb.com

I will upload them as and when I get time.

Thanks Hus

You can use anything on my site. Quite a few pennies (e.g. 8 different varieties of 1874), and varieties under florins, sixpences and farthings. I may also still have the photographs/descriptions of coins already sold, so will have a look through the darkest recesses of my PC.

[declanwmagee]

You'd have a job to beat Mr Groom's work on the 20th Century, to be honest. Certainly a lot more digestible than Messrs Davies or Freeman.

[TomGoodheart]

One problem is that specialists identify new varieties, but don't necessarily communicate that info to the wider collector base as they will usually want to upgrade to a better example before knowledge of it becomes widespread. I think it is fair to say that is something we are all guilty of. e.g Only today I sold a collector a 1748/7 halfpenny. It's the only one I or the new owner have ever seen and apart from the 1742/0 the only other example of a later Geo.II overstruck date halfpenny as far as we are aware. This isn't recorded anywhere, but is a prime example of the sort of information that would have to be dragged into the public arena. Also, some varieties are suspect with no obvious recorded examples in past sales. How to weed these out is problematic.

Verification of the previously unrecorded varieties is another important consideration. It's far too easy to claim a new variety, and everybody wants the rarity because they are worth more. You only have to look at the numerous posts on this forum to see that is the case. People see what they want to see, not what they have. Human nature is a bit of a b****r.

Very true. I and other collectors have on several occasions discussed what we think of as possibly the 'only example' of something. Or one mentions a new find and someone else pipes in 'oh, yes, I have one of those I thought unique'!

And for all I know there are another 20 (or 2000) similar little groups doing likewise. And until these 'rarities' come onto the open market rather than circulating amongst people who know each other it is impossible for the 'outsider' to know of them. Or verify they are as claimed.

Oh, and that earlier bust/ later privy mark shilling I mentioned elsewhere? It's likely the first time it was spotted was in the Osborne sale (1991) but was not identified as interesting by the auction house, being lumped in with some other coins. A further example was found in a hoard in 1993 which the purchaser considered unique at the time. And I have now seen five examples in addition to my own, suggesting it's not that rare, simply unrecognised. But it's taken 20 years for that knowledge to become 'common' to the little group of collectors I'm in touch with and I have no idea whether most dealers or auction houses would currently recognise such a coin as anything unusual. Just an illustration of how slowly information can take to get out into the wider world (and probably of some collectors' natural reticence to advertise novel finds, which would need to be overcome for such a project to be really useful).

[Accumulator]

If anyone has pictures of rare coins varieties that should be added and would allow me to use them, I am happy to mention your names and website (if coin related) eg. Courtesy of ... or leave it as anonymous.

Please email pictures and descriptions of variety to: sulo@coinsgb.com

I will upload them as and when I get time.

Thanks Hus

I'm new to scanning my coins, but you're welcome to use the 1922 penny with 1927 rev. (although you have one of these already), the 1903 penny with open 3 and the 1887 sovereign with small JEB (hooked J) posted in other threads. If you need hi-res copies I can email these. You're also welcome to use pics of any others I post in future. Anonymous is good.

[SionGilbey]

A wiki is easy to make as well with MediaWiki (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki) and someone with web knowledge and hosting (you know who you are) and a couple of volunteer mods to combat any spamming or vandalism would be able to.

If a link was given, I think most here would contribute to it and it could be posted to other coin forums like CoinsGB.com .

[Peckris]

You'd have a job to beat Mr Groom's work on the 20th Century, to be honest. Certainly a lot more digestible than Messrs Davies or Freeman.

Only needs a relative variety scarcity/rarity rating to be perfectamundo

Very true. I and other collectors have on several occasions discussed what we think of as possibly the 'only example' of something. Or one mentions a new find and someone else pipes in 'oh, yes, I have one of those I thought unique'!

I must be in a minority then. I want to find other collectors with the same variety, though not too many! In my mind, 'unique' is useless for an undiscovered variety - no-one is interested - but a handful (or more), that's a different story. That would make my 1887 wreath reverse sixpence variety and my 1964 DEI GRAT A sixpence much more valuable.

On the subject of this meisterwork don't forget ESC who have been there already and done a superb job. No point in re-inventing the wheel, but it would be useful to straighten a few spokes and put a few new ones in. But how to get all that (presumably copyrighted) stuff into a Wiki?

[SionGilbey]

For the copyrighted stuff the only way we will legally put them in is with permission from the author.

[davidrj]

For the copyrighted stuff the only way we will legally put them in is with permission from the author.

Happy for anything I've posted to be used

David

[SionGilbey]

I think we will have plenty of contributions - but who will host it?

I'm skint otherwise I would.

Anyone with a website willing to volunteer?

It's best if you have some PHP knowledge.

[Red Riley]

I think we will have plenty of contributions - but who will host it?

I'm skint otherwise I would.

Anyone with a website willing to volunteer?

It's best if you have some PHP knowledge.

I have a website but not the foggiest idea what PHP is...

[Peckris]

I have a website but not the foggiest idea what PHP is...

"Angel Dust" ... or is that PCP?

[Accumulator]

I have a website but not the foggiest idea what PHP is...

"Angel Dust" ... or is that PCP?

PHP is a scripting language, often used in conjunction with perl and MySQL. All popular with geeky types because they are open-source and hence, free!

[Red Riley]

PHP is a scripting language, often used in conjunction with perl and MySQL. All popular with geeky types because they are open-source and hence, free!

Aah...!

Perl? MySQL?

[Accumulator]

PHP is a scripting language, often used in conjunction with perl and MySQL. All popular with geeky types because they are open-source and hence, free!

Aah...!

Perl? MySQL?

perl is a programming language and MySQL is a database. These form the back-end of many smaller websites because, as mentioned above, they are free (and, for some this is important, not made by Microsoft). In fact many webservers using (the also free) Linux operation system come 'bundled' with these products and with a reasonable knowledge, enthusiastic amateurs can create almost any application they choose. The corporate market is different and dominated by other, often complex, and certainly more expensive products.

The caveat is that I've been out of that particular industry for a few years so things may have changed slightly. I'm sure someone else here knows more!

[1887jubilee]

You'd have a job to beat Mr Groom's work on the 20th Century, to be honest. Certainly a lot more digestible than Messrs Davies or Freeman.

Only needs a relative variety scarcity/rarity rating to be perfectamundo

Very true. I and other collectors have on several occasions discussed what we think of as possibly the 'only example' of something. Or one mentions a new find and someone else pipes in 'oh, yes, I have one of those I thought unique'!

I must be in a minority then. I want to find other collectors with the same variety, though not too many! In my mind, 'unique' is useless for an undiscovered variety - no-one is interested - but a handful (or more), that's a different story. That would make my 1887 wreath reverse sixpence variety and my 1964 DEI GRAT A sixpence much more valuable.

On the subject of this meisterwork don't forget ESC who have been there already and done a superb job. No point in re-inventing the wheel, but it would be useful to straighten a few spokes and put a few new ones in. But how to get all that (presumably copyrighted) stuff into a Wiki?

Don't worry, I am still looking for another 1887 sixpence with a seven as wide as yours. I have managed to find about three different positions the closest also having overstruck 2nd. 8. (3 known). I agree a Wiki would be wonderful but human nature is against us. We all need to more generous with our knowledge and less concerned about what it might cost us. If we could all publish our work easily at least the numismatic world could acknowledge the discoverer in the same way a new species is named after the person that discovered it. (Peckris septem effusus)