1893 Penny and 1918kn penny

[Guest Sam]

I've seen that the 1918kn penny is rare and my 1893 victoria penny is my oldest. Any ideas how much there worth?

[azda]

I've seen that the 1918kn penny is rare and my 1893 victoria penny is my oldest. Any ideas how much there worth?

Without seeing any pictures then its impossible to tell

[Peckris]

I've seen that the 1918kn penny is rare and my 1893 victoria penny is my oldest. Any ideas how much there worth?

Without seeing any pictures then its impossible to tell

Quite so. Condition is EVERYTHING.

As a rough guide : the 1918KN in 'average' condition (you can see all the legend on both sides, but ONE PENNY is getting a bit blurry, you can't see the entire flag detail on Britannia's shield, the fingers on her trident hand aren't distinct and separate any more) is worth between £2 and £5. In 'Mint' condition, it's worth between £1000 and £2000.

Your 1893 is worth from £1 (it's more than a flat disc: you can just about make out the legend and Britannia; Victoria is a little more than a silhouette), up to between £100 and £200 in near Mint condition.

So you see - pictures are essential.

[Peter]

both coins will be pence unless mint or nearly mint,,,I've sold many KN's at 99p

[Peckris]

both coins will be pence unless mint or nearly mint,,,I've sold many KN's at 99p

That's going a bit far Peter! A genuine VF 18KN should fetch £25 or so - there must be MANY collectors who want "above average" but can't afford EF or higher, and would cheerfully pay that.

And I'd say the VF 1893 should at least be a few quid too.

I think you're being too pessimistic. If you're not, then I will happily pay 99p to buy a GVF 1918KN off you

[davidrj]

both coins will be pence unless mint or nearly mint,,,I've sold many KN's at 99p

That's going a bit far Peter! A genuine VF 18KN should fetch £25 or so - there must be MANY collectors who want "above average" but can't afford EF or higher, and would cheerfully pay that.

And I'd say the VF 1893 should at least be a few quid too.

I think you're being too pessimistic. If you're not, then I will happily pay 99p to buy a GVF 1918KN off you

I'm still looking for a half decent 1919H

[VickySilver]

David - should have gotten the Workman 1919H in the sale with Colin Cooke. Nice piece even with the soft obv. (the reverse is VERY sharp for some reason)...

[Peter]

both coins will be pence unless mint or nearly mint,,,I've sold many KN's at 99p

That's going a bit far Peter! A genuine VF 18KN should fetch £25 or so - there must be MANY collectors who want "above average" but can't afford EF or higher, and would cheerfully pay that.

And I'd say the VF 1893 should at least be a few quid too.

I think you're being too pessimistic. If you're not, then I will happily pay 99p to buy a GVF 1918KN off you

Trouble is most KN's are from circulation and worth less than £1....I have also sold 1946 & 1949 3ds at 99p....back in the 70's they were worth more.

[Peckris]

both coins will be pence unless mint or nearly mint,,,I've sold many KN's at 99p

That's going a bit far Peter! A genuine VF 18KN should fetch £25 or so - there must be MANY collectors who want "above average" but can't afford EF or higher, and would cheerfully pay that.

And I'd say the VF 1893 should at least be a few quid too.

I think you're being too pessimistic. If you're not, then I will happily pay 99p to buy a GVF 1918KN off you

Trouble is most KN's are from circulation and worth less than £1....I have also sold 1946 & 1949 3ds at 99p....back in the 70's they were worth more.

Two points on that:

1. I agree there is a massive gap in the KN (and H) supply chain. There's a small but enthusiastically collected supply of high graders that fetch in the hundreds. But the vast majority - a glut even - are, as you say, from circulation and not very saleable, there's so many. But the gap is in the AVF to GVF grades, which are really really scarce. I wanted to upgrade to them a while back and NO-ONE had any.

2. As for the whole range of key dates, including those 3d bits - so many were pulled from circulation and subsequently sold by dealers in the late 60s, they are just not 'key' any more in my opinion. I've said it before, but I wish someone would attempt a modern census of coins from Victoria onwards : I think we would all be mildly surprised how non-rare some traditional rarities are compared to the so-called 'common' dates.

[Red Riley]

1. I agree there is a massive gap in the KN (and H) supply chain. There's a small but enthusiastically collected supply of high graders that fetch in the hundreds. But the vast majority - a glut even - are, as you say, from circulation and not very saleable, there's so many. But the gap is in the AVF to GVF grades, which are really really scarce. I wanted to upgrade to them a while back and NO-ONE had any.

Strangely this basic principle is probably also true for any KG5 penny, it's just that we don't notice it. Most coins were collected from circulation either around the date of issue or much later on when they were likely to be withdrawn at any time. When was the last time you saw a GVF 1914?

[Rob]

I wish someone would attempt a modern census of coins from Victoria onwards : I think we would all be mildly surprised how non-rare some traditional rarities are compared to the so-called 'common' dates.

I simply can't see how this could be done objectively now that they are no longer circulating. What you will probably end up doing is monitoring the periodic release of hoards of so-called rare dates when the hoarder has got fed up holding on to them such as the roughly 4000 1925 halfcrowns sold at Noble earlier this year. The additional need to police ebay for recycled pieces (as this would presumably be a major source of data) would be a pretty thankless and probably impossible task given the quality of images provided. We are also talking about comparing pieces that in the main are common or less common with only a handful of real rarities found in the last 150 years. The amount of data would be mind boggling. Double counting is a big problem. A few years ago when I still listed things on ebay, I had to prove to someone that my contention of a particular Charles I shilling type being rarer than another was true. To prove to the person asking and to ensure I wasn't making a complete tit of myself, I redid the exercise. That required finding examples in general sales only, i.e. random sale data points. Named collections are out because if you use a person's collection as the basis for data, then that person is likely to have one example of each variety they can lay their hands on. Consequently you can easily end up with the erroneous conclusion that a coin which has 2 common varieties and one maybe unique error exists in the ratio of 1:1:1. Serious rarities aside, there isn't an easy way.

[1949threepence]

I've seen that the 1918kn penny is rare and my 1893 victoria penny is my oldest. Any ideas how much there worth?

I agree with most of the other replies on the thread.

I'd also point out something more or less alluded to, and that is the importance of grade. What emerges with rare dates like 1919KN pennies or 1946/49 threepenny bits, is that whilst it is relatively easy to pick up well worn examples very cheaply, the gradient in value between those cheap specimens, and their BU counterparts at the other end of the spectrum for the same year type, is incredibly steep. Obviously that suggests massive rarity at the higher and especially, highest grades

In your case, that would be much more the case for the 1918KN, than for the much commoner 1893.

Condition is definitely the key factor. To be honest, 1918KN pennies in anything more than NVF, are as rare as hens teeth. The overwhelming majority pulled from circulation in the 1960's were good to fine only.

[1949threepence]

both coins will be pence unless mint or nearly mint,,,I've sold many KN's at 99p

That's going a bit far Peter! A genuine VF 18KN should fetch £25 or so - there must be MANY collectors who want "above average" but can't afford EF or higher, and would cheerfully pay that.

And I'd say the VF 1893 should at least be a few quid too.

I think you're being too pessimistic. If you're not, then I will happily pay 99p to buy a GVF 1918KN off you

You'd get a lot more than that for a genuinely VF 1918KN.

[Red Riley]

I agree with most of the other replies on the thread.

I'd also point out something more or less alluded to, and that is the importance of grade. What emerges with rare dates like 1919KN pennies or 1946/49 threepenny bits, is that whilst it is relatively easy to pick up well worn examples very cheaply, the gradient in value between those cheap specimens, and their BU counterparts at the other end of the spectrum for the same year type, is incredibly steep. Obviously that suggests massive rarity at the higher and especially, highest grades

In your case, that would be much more the case for the 1918KN, than for the much commoner 1893.

Condition is definitely the key factor. To be honest, 1918KN pennies in anything more than NVF, are as rare as hens teeth. The overwhelming majority pulled from circulation in the 1960's were good to fine only.

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that the highest grade coins are always the rarest, which means that pricewise what middle grade coins there are tend towards the unc rather than the fine price. I think however that this rule of thumb applies to coins in which the overall supply is strictly limited - the 1918KN penny and 1946/49 threepences being good examples. With the reasonably common Victorian pennies where mid-grade coins are abundant, the opposite applies.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Red Riley

[1949threepence]

I agree with most of the other replies on the thread.

I'd also point out something more or less alluded to, and that is the importance of grade. What emerges with rare dates like 1919KN pennies or 1946/49 threepenny bits, is that whilst it is relatively easy to pick up well worn examples very cheaply, the gradient in value between those cheap specimens, and their BU counterparts at the other end of the spectrum for the same year type, is incredibly steep. Obviously that suggests massive rarity at the higher and especially, highest grades

In your case, that would be much more the case for the 1918KN, than for the much commoner 1893.

Condition is definitely the key factor. To be honest, 1918KN pennies in anything more than NVF, are as rare as hens teeth. The overwhelming majority pulled from circulation in the 1960's were good to fine only.

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that the highest grade coins are always the rarest, which means that pricewise what middle grade coins there are tend towards the unc rather than the fine price. I think however that this rule of thumb applies to coins in which the overall supply is strictly limited - the 1918KN penny and 1946/49 threepences being good examples. With the reasonably common Victorian pennies where mid-grade coins are abundant, the opposite applies.

I certainly agree that a mid grade 1918KN, for example, is going to fetch a lot more, pro rata, than a mid grade 1893. The overall rarity of the coin comes sharply into focus when set against low grade price/demand vs mid grade price/demand.

Mid grade being about VF, I think we'd all say.

[Peckris]

1. I agree there is a massive gap in the KN (and H) supply chain. There's a small but enthusiastically collected supply of high graders that fetch in the hundreds. But the vast majority - a glut even - are, as you say, from circulation and not very saleable, there's so many. But the gap is in the AVF to GVF grades, which are really really scarce. I wanted to upgrade to them a while back and NO-ONE had any.

Strangely this basic principle is probably also true for any KG5 penny, it's just that we don't notice it. Most coins were collected from circulation either around the date of issue or much later on when they were likely to be withdrawn at any time. When was the last time you saw a GVF 1914?

Yes, I agree. Though only for the series 1913 to 1921. There seem to be quite a few mid grade 1911 - 1912 protected behind high rims, and for some reason the 1922 - 1926 OE also turn up quite a lot in the VF range. (And from 1928 onwards, VF is very common for most dates)

I wish someone would attempt a modern census of coins from Victoria onwards : I think we would all be mildly surprised how non-rare some traditional rarities are compared to the so-called 'common' dates.

I simply can't see how this could be done objectively now that they are no longer circulating. What you will probably end up doing is monitoring the periodic release of hoards of so-called rare dates when the hoarder has got fed up holding on to them such as the roughly 4000 1925 halfcrowns sold at Noble earlier this year. The additional need to police ebay for recycled pieces (as this would presumably be a major source of data) would be a pretty thankless and probably impossible task given the quality of images provided. We are also talking about comparing pieces that in the main are common or less common with only a handful of real rarities found in the last 150 years. The amount of data would be mind boggling. Double counting is a big problem. A few years ago when I still listed things on ebay, I had to prove to someone that my contention of a particular Charles I shilling type being rarer than another was true. To prove to the person asking and to ensure I wasn't making a complete tit of myself, I redid the exercise. That required finding examples in general sales only, i.e. random sale data points. Named collections are out because if you use a person's collection as the basis for data, then that person is likely to have one example of each variety they can lay their hands on. Consequently you can easily end up with the erroneous conclusion that a coin which has 2 common varieties and one maybe unique error exists in the ratio of 1:1:1. Serious rarities aside, there isn't an easy way.

Yes, I never thought it would be easy. But it does seem time that the 'deadweight inertia' of 1960s price ratios, which depended heavily on rarity vs common circulating dates, was adjusted. BU 1946 and 1949 threepences will always be rare, but I'm prepared to bet that 1946s in F are little scarcer than - say - 1939 or 1948, many of which would have been hoovered up in the meltdown. More so proportionately than the key dates.

I wonder if a quick search for certain dates and denominations on eBay could be the first step in such a survey? Repeated monthly for a year, that might provide a snapshot.

[declanwmagee]

Yes, I never thought it would be easy. But it does seem time that the 'deadweight inertia' of 1960s price ratios, which depended heavily on rarity vs common circulating dates, was adjusted. BU 1946 and 1949 threepences will always be rare, but I'm prepared to bet that 1946s in F are little scarcer than - say - 1939 or 1948, many of which would have been hoovered up in the meltdown. More so proportionately than the key dates.

I wonder if a quick search for certain dates and denominations on eBay could be the first step in such a survey? Repeated monthly for a year, that might provide a snapshot.

This is exactly the sort of project that would appeal to the autistic in me! But, as Rob quite rightly pointed out, it's the repeating that's the problem. The coins in my eBay shop stay there pretty much till they're sold, so you'd get 12 results for one coin by repeating monthly. Even if you did it once a year, you'd still find a lot of my coins still going round, but being sold by other people!

Maybe survey the coinies, not the coins? Ask everyone on this forum, as a sample, have you got, say, an 1875H, and in what grade? Truly scarce coins will be tucked away safely in people's collections, not on eBay. By definition, eBay is a place full of coins that people don't want!

[declanwmagee]

Right, here's a quick survey of George VI and Elizabeth II, on eBay. eBay being what it is, and the limitations of the eBay search criteria, mean that the following cannot be taken into account:

- varieties

- multiples of a coin in groups or sets

- listings in the wrong category

- English/Scottish shillings

- brass/silver 3d

I have excluded keyrings, cufflinks, all that nonsense, and I have excluded dear Mr Argurios who sells exclusively polished momentos of every date/denomination.

Observations:

"Key dates" are heavily over represented. Compare 1952 sixpences with 1950/51. The same can be said for the 46/49 threepences, 1950/51 pennies, 1959 halfcrowns and so on. The real scarcities out there are in the tricky '50s 3d and 2/-, 1938 silver, later G6 halfpennies. Perhaps the value of an exercise like this is identifying the coins to stock up on now, while you still can. Have a look at early 60s florins!

I'll do G5 next, becuase this is right up my street!

[declanwmagee]

George V:

I did wade through the 1912, 1918, 1919 and 1926 pennies to extract the Birmingham mints and the ME, but I didn't for any of the other 1926 denominations.

Observations:

Same trends as the later survey: 1925/1930 halfcrowns, Birmingham mint pennies. 1928 and 1930 threepences buck that trend

truly scarcer: Halfpennies, early and late farthings, early 20s small silver, early 30s small silver.

Look at the over abundance of big pre-1920 silver!

[1949threepence]

Right, here's a quick survey of George VI and Elizabeth II, on eBay. eBay being what it is, and the limitations of the eBay search criteria, mean that the following cannot be taken into account:

- varieties

- multiples of a coin in groups or sets

- listings in the wrong category

- English/Scottish shillings

- brass/silver 3d

I have excluded keyrings, cufflinks, all that nonsense, and I have excluded dear Mr Argurios who sells exclusively polished momentos of every date/denomination.

Observations:

"Key dates" are heavily over represented. Compare 1952 sixpences with 1950/51. The same can be said for the 46/49 threepences, 1950/51 pennies, 1959 halfcrowns and so on. The real scarcities out there are in the tricky '50s 3d and 2/-, 1938 silver, later G6 halfpennies. Perhaps the value of an exercise like this is identifying the coins to stock up on now, while you still can. Have a look at early 60s florins!

I'll do G5 next, becuase this is right up my street!

My observations ~ notable how scarce for sale, 1948, 1956 & 1957 threepencies are.

Thanks for your hard work on this one, Declan. A very useful and revealing exercise. I'm not quite sure precisely what it tells us quantitatively, but I think it does show up otherwise hidden scarcities. I know when I was completing my threepenny bit collection 2 to 3 years ago, it took me a long time to drop on a decent grade 1948, which surprised me.

They perhaps fall into a category of "forgotten" coins. Before the big withdrawal and meltdown, they were not really thought of as scarce ~ although mintage was not excessively high, and in 1948, positively low. Consequently, they were not hoarded. Maybe not even collected to any great extent. Hence they are now surprisingly scarce in the higher grades especially.

Edited December 21, 2010 by 1949threepence

[declanwmagee]

Stand by for E7 and late Victoria. A survey by grade would be much more interesting, of course, if anyone has the inclination!

[declanwmagee]

Edward VII:

so much for 1904 halfcrowns - you'd be better off hoarding sixpences

[declanwmagee]

...and 1 in 4 1902 pennies is a Low Tide. 1902 Low Tide ha'penny is a different story, but we knew that.

[RLC35]

Declan,

This is really good stuff, Thanks! BTW...I have a uncirculated 1902 LT Half Penny. Got it off of Mark Rassmussen!

[scott]

so many 1956 farthings lol