1911 1/2d A+b unlisted by Freeman

[Gary D]

This probably wont excite most of you who arn't into varieties but this little slot filler has been one of my holy grails for the last couple of years. I was beginning to think it didn't exist. This is the 1911 Obverse A (hollow neck) Reverse b ( last 1 to gap 9 1/2 bead date).

Ok it's not in great condition but it's the first time I've seen one. Michael Goulby mentions the four varieties on his website with three of them to be found in good condition, mine are all BU but this little sucker has been very illusive.... I'm happy to get one in any condition.

All I need now is BCC to come on here and say he's got a draw full

[Badger]

Hi Gary, nice Halfpenny. I don't suppose you (or anyone else) know of a flat neck ( / wide date (a) for sale? Its the only 1 of the 4 1911 pairings I still need.

I have came across only 2 of the hollow neck / close date which you have pictured and sold my spare earlier this year.

Badger

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

I only have the one specimen pictured.... ( of Ab)

BUT I DO have ALL 4 varieties.....

Edited January 6, 2008 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

I only have the one specimen pictured.... ( of Ab)

BUT I DO have ALL 4 varieties.....

[Gary D]

I only have the one specimen pictured.... ( of Ab)

BUT I DO have ALL 4 varieties.....

That's good to know. When we last spoke on the subject of the 1911 varieties I beleive both you and I were still looking for the A+b. Now that we have both got the full set what is your opinion on the scarcity of the A+b as it does appear to be the hardest to find.

Gary

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

I only have the one specimen pictured.... ( of Ab)

BUT I DO have ALL 4 varieties.....

That's good to know. When we last spoke on the subject of the 1911 varieties I beleive both you and I were still looking for the A+b. Now that we have both got the full set what is your opinion on the scarcity of the A+b as it does appear to be the hardest to find.

Gary

FOOLISHLY, I NEVER kept track of how many I checked nor what varieties they were.....

If memory serves me well, I believe the most common (probably about equally), were the Aa & Bb combinations, followed by the Ba pairing......

I would estimate that out of 100+ 1911 specimens that I have either examined online or purchased, plus of course all those that you and Badger have examined, I only know of 3 distinctly clear specimens... Yours and Mine and one that someone posted on CollectorsUniverse (?) last year.... additionally there is another other poorish specimen and presumably the specimen that Michael Gouby used to verify the existance of the Ab pairing.....

There MAY have been many struck but few survivors as they did not wear well, but this variety has, at least to date, been VERY ELUSIVE and DIFFICULT to find........

Edited January 6, 2008 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

LOL!!!

I just saw the date of your original post, and I suspect that YOURS was the coin on collectorsuniverse.... so possibly I only know of 2 definite specimens plus the other presumed examples......

[Gary D]

Apart from a couple of coin shows my main resource for coins is ebay which I've been looking for the A+b for a good two years. The problem with ebay is the quality of the compressed pictures. It's offen not possible to see the beading clearly let alone count them and often only the reverse will be shown. It can be a pain but if everyone was into varieties you wouldn't be able to pick up peices for small money. I picked up an EF F176 for $2 and the A+b for about $3.50.

[RLC35]

Gary, and BCC,

I think I may have one of the 1911 1/2 penny's you referenced. Please look at these pic's and advise. The I of Britt looks to be pointing more at the tooth, but is slightly off center.

Bob C.

[RLC35]

Here is a close up.

Bob C.

[Zo Arms]

I've been caught out a couple of times before, but I'm hopeful that this one is the real deal.

1911. Ab.

[Zo Arms]

[Zo Arms]

[Zo Arms]

[secret santa]

Bad news - reverse A 151 teeth, although A of HALF points to a tooth. More work required - watch this space.

Edited May 2, 2023 by secret santa
addition

[Zo Arms]

Now this is where all my confusion comes from. Capital A and lower case a.

My pointers are:

D to tooth.

D to gap.

9 half teeth date.

10 quarter teeth date.

 

The above is the last combination that I needed to complete the 4 pairings.

If I'm seeing them correctly, Gary S and Gary D both show D to tooth, 9 half teeth date width. Top of thread.

Hopefully, this is what mine shows and I've used their consonant pairing.

Whereas Bob C shows D to tooth, 10 quarter date.

A confirmation that mine matches the 2 Gary's coins would be welcome please.

Bob

[secret santa]

Ignore my previous post - I wasn't aware of Gouby's new types. I'll do some work on those and update my website.

[secret santa]

I've just been looking at these 1911 reverses and it seems to me at first glance that the best way of distinguishing between them is by the position of the middle date numeral 1. It is either (virtually) over a bead or a gap. Or am I barking up the wrong tree ?

[secret santa]

I have noticed that the normal obverse 1 has 157 border teeth and the Hollow Neck variety has 163 teeth.

[Zo Arms]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I've just been looking at these 1911 reverses and it seems to me at first glance that the best way of distinguishing between them is by the position of the middle date numeral 1. It is either (virtually) over a bead or a gap. Or am I barking up the wrong tree ?

A personal view is that if I can't count the teeth on a date spacing, the coin is to worn to bother with.

The D pointing seems to work for me but not always reliable on eBay photos unfortunately.

As I say. Gouby AaBb confuses me whereas Freeman's Capital and a numeral is clear cut.

Maybe with these pairings we should use an existing Freeman obverse and reverse and then B and 2 for the extras?

A logical progression using the accepted Freeman system?

[Mr T]

What are the Groom numbers for the reverses? I have 157 and 163 denticles for the obverses but I think the different reverses have the same number of denticles.

[Zo Arms]

2 hours ago, Mr T said:

What are the Groom numbers for the reverses? I have 157 and 163 denticles for the obverses but I think the different reverses have the same number of denticles.

I'll have a look when I get in from work.

[Zo Arms]

Groom makes no reference to the total number of teeth per each reverse. Other than to say:

Reverse A: Beads smaller than rev B. Gap between beads.

Reverse A*: Beads larger than rev A. Almost no gap between beads.

I'm guessing that the reverse B mentioned here, is that used for 1925 onwards.

Interestingly, he says that for 1912, reverse A and A* exist also. Centre of 2 over bead, centre of 2 over gap, respectively. Didn't know that. Something else to look for......

1925 pairings as per Freeman. 1+A, 2+B.  NOT  intermixed. Or are they? Maybe Gary knows different? Now theres a challenge to find.

 

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

The only variants in the dates mentioned that I am aware of at present are as follows:

Four for 1911. Both Obverses and both Reverses intermixed. (Gouby A&a, A&b, B&a, and B&b).

 

Two for 1912, listed on Michael Gouby's website as 2 date spacings:

Date A "Centre of 2 to bead, 10 beads"

Date B "Centre of 2 to gap, 9 1/2 beads"

 

Re: 1925, I am aware of only the two listed in Freeman, F-404 (1& A, Gouby B & A), and F-405 (2 & B, Gouby C & B).

[Mr T]

Yeah no mix-ups on the 1925 by the looks of it.