victorian model penny

[Rob]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:20 PM, 1949threepence said:

Oh right, was Etheridge his real name? I always thought it was Copthorne. Maybe he named his collection after something else.

It's where he lived

[secret santa]

I emailed him to let him know we remember him and got this reply:

"Hi Richard,

Happy New year to you too.

 

Having sold the bulk of my collection, I'm really not involved in the collection of pennies any longer so haven't visited pre-decimal forum.

 

If anyone has a specific enquiry or question about a coin I sold, then I'd be pleased to help though.

 

Happy collecting!

 

Best wishes,

 

Steve"

[1949threepence]

Given my recent purchase of a BMC 2088 Moore pattern/model penny, dated 1844, I thought I would list on here, all the BMC 2088 specimens I could find after research, before I forget or lose the piece of paper I wrote them down on. It might prove of use or interest at some point.

1/ Freeman auction 23.10.84, lot 252, £380 hammer, ex Foster (October 1953), ex Peck (date not known). Condition given as EF.

2/ DNW auction 14.12.04, lot 1025, £440 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as EF, but poor photography. Not convinced it's quite EF.

3/ Copthorne auction, May 2016, lot 216, £850 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as UNC. Looks pretty much the same as mine, which I'd class as GEF.

4/ LCA auction 5.6.22, lot 1817, £240 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as VF.

5/ The one I've just bought, January 2023, from Tim Medhurst, no provenance stated. Condition GEF with residual lustre. The reverse is not inverted - don't know about the others in this respect.  .

6/ Noonans upcoming auction 1.2.23, estimate £300 - £400. No provenance stated. Condition given as GVF, I'd say closer to plain VF.

Peck also mentions BMC 2087, which is the same as BMC 2088, but all brass. Not seen one of this type.

*****************************************************************************************************************

There was also a mule version sold by LCA on 3.3.19, lot 1234, for £360 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as NEF. Date on the obverse, "model" on the reverse. 

   

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by 1949threepence
added more detail

[1949threepence]

On 1/14/2023 at 6:56 PM, 1949threepence said:

Given my recent purchase of a BMC 2088 Moore pattern/model penny, dated 1844, I thought I would list on here, all the BMC 2088 specimens I could find after research, before I forget or lose the piece of paper I wrote them down on. It might prove of use or interest at some point.

1/ Freeman auction 23.10.84, lot 252, £380 hammer, ex Foster (October 1953), ex Peck (date not known). Condition given as EF.

2/ DNW auction 14.12.04, lot 1025, £440 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as EF, but poor photography. Not convinced it's quite EF.

1/ (same coin) Copthorne auction, May 2016, lot 216, £850 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as UNC. Looks pretty much the same as mine, which I'd class as GEF.

3/ LCA auction 5.6.22, lot 1817, £240 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as VF.

4/ The one I've just bought, January 2023, from Tim Medhurst, no provenance stated. Condition GEF with residual lustre. The reverse is not inverted - don't know about the others in this respect.  .

5/ Noonans upcoming auction 1.2.23, estimate £300 - £400. No provenance stated. Condition given as GVF, I'd say closer to plain VF.

Peck also mentions BMC 2087, which is the same as BMC 2088, but all brass. Not seen one of this type.

*****************************************************************************************************************

There was also a mule version sold by LCA on 3.3.19, lot 1234, for £360 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as NEF. Date on the obverse, "model" on the reverse. 

   

 

Having done a little further research, I think I can say with confidence that Nos 1 & 3 above, are in fact the same coin. I've compared and contrasted the Colin Cooke pic, with the smaller black and white pic in the Christie's auction catalogue from 1984, and the light marks round the left of the O of ONE on the reverse, as well as the mark just above and to the right of the N of ONE, also on the reverse, are identical.

Although the Christies pic is not brilliant, the marks in question show up quite clearly under a magnifier.

So the total above is reduced by one, to five   

[1949threepence]

On 1/14/2023 at 6:56 PM, 1949threepence said:

Given my recent purchase of a BMC 2088 Moore pattern/model penny, dated 1844, I thought I would list on here, all the BMC 2088 specimens I could find after research, before I forget or lose the piece of paper I wrote them down on. It might prove of use or interest at some point.

1/ Freeman auction 23.10.84, lot 252, £380 hammer, ex Foster (October 1953), ex Peck (date not known). Condition given as EF.

2/ DNW auction 14.12.04, lot 1025, £440 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as EF, but poor photography. Not convinced it's quite EF.

3/ Copthorne auction, May 2016, lot 216, £850 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as UNC. Looks pretty much the same as mine, which I'd class as GEF.

4/ LCA auction 5.6.22, lot 1817, £240 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as VF.

5/ The one I've just bought, January 2023, from Tim Medhurst, no provenance stated. Condition GEF with residual lustre. The reverse is not inverted - don't know about the others in this respect.  .

6/ Noonans upcoming auction 1.2.23, estimate £300 - £400. No provenance stated. Condition given as GVF, I'd say closer to plain VF.

Peck also mentions BMC 2087, which is the same as BMC 2088, but all brass. Not seen one of this type.

*****************************************************************************************************************

There was also a mule version sold by LCA on 3.3.19, lot 1234, for £360 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as NEF. Date on the obverse, "model" on the reverse. 

   

 

At the risk of becoming a total bore on this issue I can now also say that specimens 4 and 6 are the same coin. There are dings and marks in exactly the same places.

This further reduces the total from five to four.    

[secret santa]

Mike, I'll add this to the rarest pennies site - can you supply links ?

[1949threepence]

30 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Mike, I'll add this to the rarest pennies site - can you supply links ?

Yes Richard I can.

I'm actually at work at the minute - albeit working from home. Got this afternoon off so when I log off at 1:30pm, I'll pm you the links for all of them.  

 

[1949threepence]

4 hours ago, secret santa said:

Mike, I'll add this to the rarest pennies site - can you supply links ?

PM now sent.

[copper123]

The 1844 dated coins were almost certainly specially minted to present as a alternative to the then circulating change , it would be fair to imagine the were given away to lobyists , MP's and various others including the mint  ,Probably as many as fourty were issued for this purpose , though it could be a lot lower than that . Many have been lost and only less than twelve are known now

Edited January 17, 2023 by copper123

[1949threepence]

3 hours ago, copper123 said:

The 1844 dated coins were almost certainly specially minted to present as a alternative to the then circulating change , it would be fair to imagine the were given away to lobyists , MP's and various others including the mint  ,Probably as many as fourty were issued for this purpose , though it could be a lot lower than that . Many have been lost and only less than twelve are known now

We know that the undated bi metallic copper model pennies with the nickel zinc and brass centres circulated quite widely post 1844 (although there is a question mark about the exact year they started circulatng - maybe as late as 1848). They proved to be very popular such that the Mint had to deny they had anythng to do with them The popularity no doubt due to the public perhaps feeling weighed down by the very large copper pennies, and finding the unofficial small versions very convenient in that respect. 

Exactly why the dated 1844 pattern penny was minted by Moore, and clearly in such small numbers, is a mystery. As you allude to above maybe they were in a sense "VIP" coins specially made for those of power and influence, as keepsakes.     

As to precisely how many there are now, who knows. At the Copthorne sale, it was reckoned that four were known, and unless some more emerge, hopefully as a result of members reading these recent posts, it's still four. I originally thought six, but two of the six are the same specimen, as explained above.  

There are some other rare examples such as the "PENNEY" spelling error as well as the all silver undated model penny. Not to mention one or two other possibly unique specimens sold at the Copthorne auction under the Moore heading.    

All in all, very interesting.

[copper123]

heres a nice example of a halfpenny

[DrLarry]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:55 AM, secret santa said:

Mike, I'll add this to the rarest pennies site - can you supply links ?

the rarest one of this series is the model with the Vertical lines i think  listed as Freeman 797 as unique but  Peck 2088 says  there are three known 

[DrLarry]

On 5/30/2006 at 7:02 AM, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

This is an example of the PENNEY error mentioned above......

Here are the other rarities.... A model penny (F-799) and half penny (F-804) in silver ...

could you tell me do you know if the Gothic Portrait  1 D 1848 in copper is one of Moore's models? Actually I am not sure it may be bronze 

Edited February 28, 2023 by DrLarry

[1949threepence]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:24 PM, DrLarry said:

could you tell me do you know if the Gothic Portrait  1 D 1848 in copper is one of Moore's models? Actually I am not sure it may be bronze 

 

As no-one else has stepped in to answer your question, I'll give it my two penn'uth for what it's worth.

I can't seem to find anything about the 1848 in either Freeman or Peck. But a similar offering on e bay (minus the crown) is touted to be by Moore, and cites Rogers No 262, but without the doubled I - link.

There is also a specimen with the crown, but no other detail - link

I wonder if there is anything else in Rogers that might help. Or indeed in Tony Barter's book.

Quite apart from anything else, the horizontal lines through the 1 seem to be strongly indicative of Moore. So I'd say on balance, it is one of Moore's model pennies.      

[DrLarry]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

As no-one else has stepped in to answer your question, I'll give it my two penn'uth for what it's worth.

I can't seem to find anything about the 1848 in either Freeman or Peck. But a similar offering on e bay (minus the crown) is touted to be by Moore, and cites Rogers No 262, but without the doubled I - link.

There is also a specimen with the crown, but no other detail - link

I wonder if there is anything else in Rogers that might help. Or indeed in Tony Barter's book.

Quite apart from anything else, the horizontal lines through the 1 seem to be strongly indicative of Moore. So I'd say on balance, it is one of Moore's model pennies.      

thank you anyone's penn'uth worth is better than nothing.  I agree that is does seem to be a Moore.

 

There is nothing in Rogers In terms of images  although he does write that there are others who have studied these to a greater extent than he has.  A mule is mentioned for some of the small Royal family metalet types and the model penny so I am thinking it may be one f those 

 

thanks you made me look again and look harder 

Edited March 3, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

6 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

As no-one else has stepped in to answer your question, I'll give it my two penn'uth for what it's worth.

I can't seem to find anything about the 1848 in either Freeman or Peck. But a similar offering on e bay (minus the crown) is touted to be by Moore, and cites Rogers No 262, but without the doubled I - link.

There is also a specimen with the crown, but no other detail - link

I wonder if there is anything else in Rogers that might help. Or indeed in Tony Barter's book.

Quite apart from anything else, the horizontal lines through the 1 seem to be strongly indicative of Moore. So I'd say on balance, it is one of Moore's model pennies.      

I think it is # 267  mule of one of these  portraits although the hair bun overflowing the crown differs and the braid completes closer to the first forward to the back of the skull 

Edited March 3, 2023 by DrLarry

[pies]

On 1/14/2023 at 6:56 PM, 1949threepence said:

Given my recent purchase of a BMC 2088 Moore pattern/model penny, dated 1844, I thought I would list on here, all the BMC 2088 specimens I could find after research, before I forget or lose the piece of paper I wrote them down on. It might prove of use or interest at some point.

1/ Freeman auction 23.10.84, lot 252, £380 hammer, ex Foster (October 1953), ex Peck (date not known). Condition given as EF.

2/ DNW auction 14.12.04, lot 1025, £440 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as EF, but poor photography. Not convinced it's quite EF.

3/ Copthorne auction, May 2016, lot 216, £850 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as UNC. Looks pretty much the same as mine, which I'd class as GEF.

4/ LCA auction 5.6.22, lot 1817, £240 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as VF.

5/ The one I've just bought, January 2023, from Tim Medhurst, no provenance stated. Condition GEF with residual lustre. The reverse is not inverted - don't know about the others in this respect.  .

6/ Noonans upcoming auction 1.2.23, estimate £300 - £400. No provenance stated. Condition given as GVF, I'd say closer to plain VF.

Peck also mentions BMC 2087, which is the same as BMC 2088, but all brass. Not seen one of this type.

*****************************************************************************************************************

There was also a mule version sold by LCA on 3.3.19, lot 1234, for £360 hammer, no provenance stated. Condition given as NEF. Date on the obverse, "model" on the reverse. 

   

 

Only top one could be mine as i purchased it in 2014

 

 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, pies said:

Only top one could be mine as i purchased it in 2014

Or one not on the list. In the absence of any documentary evidence, does it match the image?

[pies]

17 minutes ago, Rob said:

Or one not on the list. In the absence of any documentary evidence, does it match the image?

 

i need to learn to take better pics , i believe mine was ex magney

 

sorry i meant of those mine could only be top one, not saying it was 😆 

Edited September 5, 2023 by pies

[Rob]

2 minutes ago, pies said:

 

i need to learn to take better pics , i believe mine was ex magney

Different coin. Those pictures are a 'PENNEY' obverse, not a dated one.

[pies]

36 minutes ago, Rob said:

Different coin. Those pictures are a 'PENNEY' obverse, not a dated one.

😂 wrong pics uploaded. Try again

[Rob]

Different coin. None of the toning spots match, so make that 7 on the list.

[1949threepence]

9 hours ago, pies said:

Only top one could be mine as i purchased it in 2014

 

 

As Rob says, yours was the "PENNEY" spelling error, as opposed to the rare date. We found yours in this thread, but for whatever reason Richard couldn't properly load the reverse pic (scroll down to example 4 of the "PENNEY" errors) in his rarest pennies website.

Does the date example with the bright blue background, belong to you?    

[pies]

7 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

As Rob says, yours was the "PENNEY" spelling error, as opposed to the rare date. We found yours in this thread, but for whatever reason Richard couldn't properly load the reverse pic (scroll down to example 4 of the "PENNEY" errors) in his rarest pennies website.

Does the date example with the bright blue background, belong to you?    

Yep, 

[1949threepence]

5 hours ago, pies said:

Yep, 

OK thanks.