Noonan's Sale Tomorrow - Problems With 3d and 4ds

[VickySilver 806]

You know I have looked at this sale for a while and didn't say anything but feel the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome setting in with me. 

What I have to say is: "what on Earth?"..

I have issues with the first 1853 groat listed as currency (IMHO not at all), and then the "currency" 3ds from earlier Victoria:  

Not inclusive but the key dates of 1846, 1847, 1848, 1852 and 1853 NOT in my opinion currency despite their being graded as such. These coins all have the classic Maundy appearance with typical strikes and appearance as such and not even the occasional tricky satin format that they will occasionally appear as. I  do not know the consignor and bear him/her no ill will unless they were witting in the sale of same. And also shame on NGC for their designations.

Without digressing too far, clearly many of the early Victorian Maundy are not ideal representations of the genre, though I have seen some superb strikes, and so occasionally central details like Victoria's hair, etc. may come flat and ill-defined, the denticles may be a bit mushy and strike perhaps a bit uneven. However the strikes have a fairly typical appearance despite all that, and the difference perhaps a bit more clear when compared to clear currency pieces not worn. Obviously worn pieces are more difficult to discriminate, but these obviously not.

It is my humble opinion that with such coins it likely best to assume Maundy status on the 3d and then if possible PROVE that it is currency. The same is analogously true for the 1853 groat that is prohibitively rare in true currency and not proof status although even in proof is cerainly scarce; (incidentally,  the recent proof offered by Colin Cooke designated as such is of a rare later obverse type).

What do readers think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by VickySilver
clarity

[Iannich48 201]

I think that you are spot on as usual. Shame on Noonan's, but hopefully other buyers will notice what you have noticed about the 3 and 4d's.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Iannich48

[Peckris 2 2,102]

do you have a link to the 3d's?

 

[VickySilver 806]

Begins lot 428 on page 11.  Can't link tho...

[Menger 83]

I think the market did a good job of separating the wheat from the chaff.  The 1846 3d possibly (from afar) and 1847 3d especially being exceptions (in each case the whole Maundy set seemed a better bargain - but even these were not too exuberant).  The 1841 3d went higher than I hoped and it was great to see the robust little 1851 3d do well. I picked up the 1836 groat.  The 1847/8 groat was in my view the best piece among them and it got a reasonable price.  The NGC slabbed 1853 groat  “currency” was rejected by the market as it deserved. 

[1949threepence 3,367]

21 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

do you have a link to the 3d's?

 

Here it is Chris

I'd extravagantly placed an advance bid of £4k for the 1863 die No 4 under date penny. But last night decided it was a bridge too far financially and withdrew my bid. Especially given the juice you have to pay on top, with Noonans.

Too many other competing priorities.  

[secret santa 2,137]

The LCA specimen next month should be much cheaper.

[1949threepence 3,367]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

The LCA specimen next month should be much cheaper.

Without a doubt.

[VickySilver 806]

I was also surprised at the results for the 1850s 3ds, which are indeed scarcer. Prices seem to have advanced quite a bit in the last several years as I got a number of them from either DNW or Baldwin's (1855-1859, 1862, 1863) at mere fractions. Nice to see there is a bit of interest.

[oldcopper 283]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:23 PM, secret santa said:

The LCA specimen next month should be much cheaper.

Talking of which, I wouldn't bid on their draped bust James II farthing, especially as its tie ribbons are long and hanging down, and you can see the other side of the cuirass. But apart from that.... 

Neither would I be tempted by their James II 1687/6 shilling though it's got good detail - it's the one from Sept 2013 DNW sale now brightly cleaned. I should know - I bought it back then, sold it a few years ago. As often happens nowadays, some people take a very reasonable appearance coin (dusky grey here) and turn it into something that might just have fallen out of a Christmas cracker.