have you seen the price of a kew gardens ?

[Peckris 2]

On 1/3/2020 at 11:22 PM, Sword said:

They were the same size as the previous crowns and had the word "crown" on it. In addition, the obverse design is the same as the circulating coins of lower denominations. The Royal Mint must have been advertising them yearly so that people know they are available. My feeling is that if crowns were still being circulated in the 1920s, they could have been accepted. True, what I have just said has a significant element of hope rather than evidence. 

Yes, but where, and to whom? The mintages were so low I can imagine the adverts may well have been restricted to collector media. Considering how attractive they are as designs, I'd have thought many more people would have been interested if they'd been promoted widely and then the mintage would have gone up.

Were crowns still circulating in the 1920s? Possible I guess, though they'd have been exclusively Vic JH and OH types.

 

On 1/3/2020 at 11:56 PM, Rob said:

I think we ignore the amount of wealth in peoples' pockets in the past at our peril. When some (admittedly rare) coins were changing hands for decent 3 figure sums in the Victorian era, a crown would be a trifling sum for a good number of people - certainly enough for them to be used. On a more mundane level, most lots were selling for at least half a guinea. Even my Philip & Mary portrait penny sold in Cuff (1854) for £6 - which is a lot of crowns. Given numismatics only occupies a niche in society, the population overall must have had ample scope to use them.

But you're talking about collectors, Rob! In Victorian and earlier times, it was the hobby of aristos and latterly perhaps, the newly moneyed entrepreneurs. Certainly not the great bulk of the working class/agricultural/lower middle class population. Perhaps those few would have been comfortable with crowns, but not most people.

 

21 hours ago, JLS said:

It's plausible that some Wreath crowns may have circulated, as you find them in really low grades, not just VF or Fine. I've seen an example which probably wouldn't even make "Fair". 

In the early days of the 0.500 silver coinage I imagine a fair bit of 0.925 silver was still in circulation. If you look at the bottom grade Old Head crowns, or George V sterling halfcrowns, some of which are barely readable, this seems pretty plausible. 

If people were used to accepting Victorian crowns through the first half of the 1920s, if a wreath crown popped up in 1927 or 1930 it's hard to see them rejecting it as not being current.

The wreath crowns in that link have the look of 'pocket pieces' to me, though it's a subtle distinction admittedly.

George V sterling halfcrowns - unlike the 20s examples - most often show up in an average of GF-VF/GVF-EF, showing that their circulation was limited. The reason for that is that people hoarded them, believing correctly that a solid silver coin was worth intrinsically more than its debased descendant. Most of the rest were called in by the RM though it's true that a few escaped and did circulate.

Victorian crowns were relatively common as types, where the wreath type was extremely uncommon. But I guess we'll never have the evidence, unless the memoir shows up of a shopkeeper with an interest in what passed through his till ... though that would immediately make him more likely to have accepted a crown than not.

 

20 hours ago, Coys55 said:

The 1954 penny, 1952 halfcrown and Edward VIII threepences entered circulation accidentally though. 210k is a pretty low mintage for an intended circulation coin. The only one with a lower mintage that I can think of off the top of my head is the 1951 penny and even that was not (at least intentionally) released for circulation in the UK.

Don't forget that the 54 1d and the 52 2/6 were established types (I'm guessing that the 54 1d possibly didn't circulate until after 1961? as the sight of any Elizabeth II penny might have been noticed by some of its handlers). The Edward VIII 3d was probably noticed by people but with war looming and the ignorance of its rarity, possibly got passed on as in that story someone related here; it did look very similar, especially the obverse, to the GVI 3ds which themselves were regarded as an interesting novelty for the first few years.

[Coys55]

20 hours ago, copper123 said:

All maundy coins are legal tender and every date has a much lower mintage than the kew gardens 50p

Yes they are legal tender but they have never been released into circulation, which is completely different.

[1949threepence]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:33 PM, Coys55 said:

 

The 1954 penny, 1952 halfcrown and Edward VIII threepences entered circulation accidentally though. 210k is a pretty low mintage for an intended circulation coin. The only one with a lower mintage that I can think of off the top of my head is the 1951 penny and even that was not (at least intentionally) released for circulation in the UK.

There are some rare date sub varieties with probable mintages way below 210k - although whether they would count in this scenario is debatable.

[Coys55]

On 1/2/2020 at 10:36 PM, Peckris 2 said:

I can say that I never saw ANY crown in change, not even a Churchill which were extremely common.

I had a Saturday job in the local pet shop for about three years in the late 60's and 70's and used to save anything interesting to exchange for cash at the end of the day. I remember finding one Churchill crown. I don't remember if I kept it, but I think probably not.

[copper123]

On 1/6/2020 at 11:42 AM, Coys55 said:

I had a Saturday job in the local pet shop for about three years in the late 60's and 70's and used to save anything interesting to exchange for cash at the end of the day. I remember finding one Churchill crown. I don't remember if I kept it, but I think probably not.

Quite a few 1972 and 1977 crowns went into circulation

[Peckris 2]

29 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Quite a few 1972 and 1977 crowns went into circulation

I never saw one, but having said that they were clearly "25 PENCE" rather than "CROWN" so probably got accepted more.

[copper123]

On 1/6/2020 at 11:42 AM, Coys55 said:

I had a Saturday job in the local pet shop for about three years in the late 60's and 70's and used to save anything interesting to exchange for cash at the end of the day. I remember finding one Churchill crown. I don't remember if I kept it, but I think probably not.

this proves  crowns circulated doesn'nt it

[mrbadexample]

18 hours ago, copper123 said:

Quite a few 1972 and 1977 crowns went into circulation

I remember lots of my mates spending the 1977 25p on sweets. They were certainly spent, but I never saw one come back in change. 

[Sword]

Sounds like some shopkeepers did accept these crown pieces but they had to take them to the bank afterwards. Hence, they were "money" in a sense but I wouldn't say they have "circulated" in the 70s.

[1949threepence]

22 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

I remember lots of my mates spending the 1977 25p on sweets. They were certainly spent, but I never saw one come back in change. 

Logical. Shopkeepers would have no doubt been aware that they were then able to pay them into the bank as 25p's, but many customers would have complained or said "what's this?" if they'd been handed them as change. Which wouldn't have been worth the time and hassle trying to explain.       

[copper123]

12 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Logical. Shopkeepers would have no doubt been aware that they were then able to pay them into the bank as 25p's, but many customers would have complained or said "what's this?" if they'd been handed them as change. Which wouldn't have been worth the time and hassle trying to explain.       

They were a pain as in the size of the darn things I mean , like modern cartwheels

[mrbadexample]

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Logical. Shopkeepers would have no doubt been aware that they were then able to pay them into the bank as 25p's, but many customers would have complained or said "what's this?" if they'd been handed them as change. Which wouldn't have been worth the time and hassle trying to explain.       

Absolutely, so they were spent but not circulated. You can't find one with any proper wear.

The level of wear seen on the wreath crowns surely means they circulated? I don't really buy this "pocket piece" thing other than accounting for very limited wear. I've carried a cleaned Jersey 1858 1/13d (i.e. a nice soft copper) about in my pocket for over a year in an attempt to wear the shine off, rattling about with keys and other coins etc, and whilst it did take the shine off a bit, there was no discernible wear. To wear one below EF would take decades, I think.

[copper123]

Crowns from the sixties and seventies were seen as curios and often ended up in shop tills for a long time before being banked .

I worked in a shop  for about seven or so years from 2008 to 2015 and while not common i did have a few of the pre 1997 two pound coins and also five pound pieces pass through the tills - as i know they were oficially legal tender I accepted them .

 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, copper123 said:

Crowns from the sixties and seventies were seen as curios and often ended up in shop tills for a long time before being banked .

I worked in a shop  for about seven or so years from 2008 to 2015 and while not common i did have a few of the pre 1997 two pound coins and also five pound pieces pass through the tills - as i know they were oficially legal tender I accepted them .

 

I've not had one of those 1986 £2 coins in my change since about 1996. Probably received one about five times between about 1989 and 1996.   

[Sword]

24 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I've not had one of those 1986 £2 coins in my change since about 1996. Probably received one about five times between about 1989 and 1996.   

I think the old style two pound coins were more acceptable for spending until 1996. Their style fits in well with the then one pound coins. People were quite likely to accept the odd ones thinking that more will enter circulation soon. However, the introduction of the bimetallic version in 1997 gave most people the defining image of what a two pound coin should look like. Hence I imagine the old two pounds would be refused from that year onward. 

[Peckris 2]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:35 PM, mrbadexample said:

Absolutely, so they were spent but not circulated. You can't find one with any proper wear.

The level of wear seen on the wreath crowns surely means they circulated? I don't really buy this "pocket piece" thing other than accounting for very limited wear. I've carried a cleaned Jersey 1858 1/13d (i.e. a nice soft copper) about in my pocket for over a year in an attempt to wear the shine off, rattling about with keys and other coins etc, and whilst it did take the shine off a bit, there was no discernible wear. To wear one below EF would take decades, I think.

1. A year really isn't very long at all; the average coin would still be EF or better after just a year in circulation. The wreaths were struck between 1928 and 1936 and therefore potentially have had decades in pockets, wallets or wherever.

2. You're a collector. You have an inbuilt inhibition against rubbing coins - you can't say the same for a non-collector who acquired a wreath and who may have enthusiastically rubbed it clean over the years,  not noticing the gradual wear. Only 30-35k were minted; let's say that as many as a fifth display extensive wear - that means around 6,000 'circulated' extensively enough to sustain the wear seen. I just can't see a mere 6,000 examples of a unique coin type being passed around unquestioned from shop to person to shop to bank to person to shop etc etc.

[Sword]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:35 PM, mrbadexample said:

The level of wear seen on the wreath crowns surely means they circulated? I don't really buy this "pocket piece" thing other than accounting for very limited wear. I've carried a cleaned Jersey 1858 1/13d (i.e. a nice soft copper) about in my pocket for over a year in an attempt to wear the shine off, rattling about with keys and other coins etc, and whilst it did take the shine off a bit, there was no discernible wear. To wear one below EF would take decades, I think.

 

21 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

1. A year really isn't very long at all; the average coin would still be EF or better after just a year in circulation. The wreaths were struck between 1928 and 1936 and therefore potentially have had decades in pockets, wallets or wherever.

2. You're a collector. You have an inbuilt inhibition against rubbing coins - you can't say the same for a non-collector who acquired a wreath and who may have enthusiastically rubbed it clean over the years,  not noticing the gradual wear. Only 30-35k were minted; let's say that as many as a fifth display extensive wear - that means around 6,000 'circulated' extensively enough to sustain the wear seen. I just can't see a mere 6,000 examples of a unique coin type being passed around unquestioned from shop to person to shop to bank to person to shop etc etc.

I am now more convinced that the very worn Wreath pieces (and for that matter the 1935 Rocking Horse) have wear due at least in part to manual polishing. 0.5 silver coins were not minted from 1947 and I understand that the public were keen to hoard pre 1947 coins once they realised that new coins no longer contained silver. Hence those crown pieces probably only "circulated" till about 1947 at the most and I find it difficult for coins to get to Fine or less in such time scale.

However, I still believe that a small number did circulate (in the same way that the old style £2 pounds have circulated) for the reasons I already mentioned. 

[1949threepence]

On 1/10/2020 at 11:08 PM, Sword said:

I think the old style two pound coins were more acceptable for spending until 1996. Their style fits in well with the then one pound coins. People were quite likely to accept the odd ones thinking that more will enter circulation soon. However, the introduction of the bimetallic version in 1997 gave most people the defining image of what a two pound coin should look like. Hence I imagine the old two pounds would be refused from that year onward. 

I'm not convinced they'd be refused, but I just wonder where they are. Maybe they were just more conspicuous back then, because they were the only ones around. Nowadays, of course, they're swamped. But the fact remains, they definitely circulated. 

I'd certainly notice one if it were handed to me in change.  

[mrbadexample]

23 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

1. A year really isn't very long at all; the average coin would still be EF or better after just a year in circulation. The wreaths were struck between 1928 and 1936 and therefore potentially have had decades in pockets, wallets or wherever.

2. You're a collector. You have an inbuilt inhibition against rubbing coins -

1. Agreed, a year in circulation isn't long, but it's different to a year in the pocket where it's not being slid across counters and in and out of cash registers etc, so I think the impact is much less. 

2. I actively handled it whenever I could - it was polished and a year barely took the shine off. I still think to get something down to VF would involve decades and habitual weekly polishing. 

[Sword]

I think the Royal mint has been particularly unfair with regard to the old £2 pieces. They minted over 30 million such coins (over 8 million for 1986, 7 million, 5 million etc for other years) in total and it is hardly surprising that some got into circulation. I remember paying £4 as a teenager for a 1986 coin housed in the usual packaging thinking that it will always have an intrinsic value of £2.

The Royal mint site currently states "The commemorative £2 coins were issued to mark special occasions rather than for use in general circulation. They are legal tender but contrary to popular belief this does not mean that banks and retailers automatically have to accept them. Indeed you will probably find that most banks and retailers refuse."

My feeling is that every piece of junk the Royal Mint make these days is marking some special (or not so special) occasion or event or cartoon character. The mintage of some of the old £2 coins  are so much higher than the so called circulating Kew garden 50p for example. I would be surprised if they had told anyone in the 80s that such coins are not for circulating and so will not be accepted in banks. Since the £2 coin is a current denomination, I think The Royal Mint should do the decent thing and ask banks to let people exchange the old pieces if they wish to.

An episode of the Simpsons come to mind:

Woman: Would you like to buy some Itchy and Scratchy Money?
Homer: What's that?
Woman: Well it's money that's made just for the park... And it works just like regular money, but it's, er..."fun".
Bart: Do it, Dad.
Homer: Well, OK, if it's fun... let's see, uh...I'll take $1100 worth. (gets the money and he walks in and sees all the signs that show places prohibiting Itchy and Scratchy Money) Awwwww!

Edited January 13, 2020 by Sword

[blakeyboy]

Exactly my view of the RM at times..

[blakeyboy]

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

1. Agreed, a year in circulation isn't long, but it's different to a year in the pocket where it's not being slid across counters and in and out of cash registers etc, so I think the impact is much less. 

2. I actively handled it whenever I could - it was polished and a year barely took the shine off. I still think to get something down to VF would involve decades and habitual weekly polishing. 

How many times on an antiques programme has a piece of silver been seen with the hallmark polished out???

I pop curio coins that I want to de-polish into my pocket, and yes, all that happens is a change in tone, and in the case of a dark bronze coin,

the high spots lighten, but that's it. To shift from UNC to VF say, would take years and years...

[blakeyboy]

Ooh- just had a thought- surely the more commonly used denominations would wear more quickly?

I can't see a crown moving about as much as a shilling....

[1949threepence]

I did try calling my bank about their policy on the old £2 coins, but it was a call centre and she literally didn't have a clue what I was on about.

[Paddy]

From experience I can say that Barclays generally do accept the £2 and £5 coins. Lloyds definitely don't. Anyone any feedback on any of the others?