1926 Change of Effigy

[youliveyoulean]

Hi,

just wanted a few comments on this.

I've been studying and collecting silver George V coinage extensively for a few years now and from my observations, it appears that the introduction of the modified effigy was staggered starting with the threepence and finishing with the halfcrown.

The 2nd head currency 3p is quite rare (extremely in high grades) with the modified 3rd head much more common.

Conversely, the 2nd head halfcrown seems to be more common than the modified head halfcrown of the same year.

I've had it on good authority from someone who collects sixpences that he sees several modified heads to every one old head 1926 which seems to fit.

Any thoughts? I'm curious why ESC specifically comments and states the old head halfcrown is rarer as I would be surprised if that is the case.

 

 

 

[ozjohn]

Just on a search on Ebay the ME version of the halfcrown seems to be rarer than the 2nd effigy. As far as I know no figures exist on the mintage of the two different  types.

[Peckris]

This is a much more complex subject than it first appears.

As far as official issues are concerned, it's not the 3d but the halfpenny (1925) where the ME begins, and the last denomination to introduce it was the 1927 proof florin.

 However, the matter is complicated by pennies (as usual!). There is an extremely rare - possibly unique - 1922 penny with the modified effigy and the rare experimental reverse (so-called "1927 type", though it isn't). My own thesis, developed in an article for Coin News, is that this doesn't date from 1922 but is an experimental piece quite possibly struck in 1925 - when no pennies were scheduled - using the new obverse and a leftover experimental 1922 reverse die (which was effectively introduced for each bronze denomination when the ME came in, with the exception of the 1926ME penny, which I suggest was an unplanned emergency issue).

The relative rarity of the halfcrown types has long switched back and forth; my opinion is also that the ME is scarcer, but not by a long way.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Peckris said:

This is a much more complex subject than it first appears.

As far as official issues are concerned, it's not the 3d but the halfpenny (1925) where the ME begins, and the last denomination to introduce it was the 1927 proof florin.

 However, the matter is complicated by pennies (as usual!). There is an extremely rare - possibly unique - 1922 penny with the modified effigy and the rare experimental reverse (so-called "1927 type", though it isn't). My own thesis, developed in an article for Coin News, is that this doesn't date from 1922 but is an experimental piece quite possibly struck in 1925 - when no pennies were scheduled - using the new obverse and a leftover experimental 1922 reverse die (which was effectively introduced for each bronze denomination when the ME came in, with the exception of the 1926ME penny, which I suggest was an unplanned emergency issue).

The relative rarity of the halfcrown types has long switched back and forth; my opinion is also that the ME is scarcer, but not by a long way.

I wonder just how many of this extremely rare type were actually minted, and why they were issued for circulation.

[ozjohn]

I would have thought the 1927 crown and florin were a dead heat for the last coins to introduce the me effigy rather than just the florin.

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, Peckris said:

However, the matter is complicated by pennies (as usual!). There is an extremely rare - possibly unique - 1922 penny with the modified effigy and the rare experimental reverse (so-called "1927 type", though it isn't). My own thesis, developed in an article for Coin News, is that this doesn't date from 1922 but is an experimental piece quite possibly struck in 1925 - when no pennies were scheduled - using the new obverse and a leftover experimental 1922 reverse die (which was effectively introduced for each bronze denomination when the ME came in, with the exception of the 1926ME penny, which I suggest was an unplanned emergency issue).

No - this rare, possibly unique, penny has the modified effigy obverse but the true 1927 reverse.

[VickySilver]

Yikes, that would be your coin?

Pictures please, kind Sir!

Have you posted it before? Can't remember!

[secret santa]

Yes, it's been posted a few times but here it is again to save searching.

[secret santa]

And the reverse

[Peckris]

23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I wonder just how many of this extremely rare type were actually minted, and why they were issued for circulation.

None for circulation, I'd say. Even the genuine 1922-with-1927-reverse was probably just a few to experiment with and then chucked into the hopper with maybe a couple of pieces held back for the museum?

23 hours ago, ozjohn said:

I would have thought the 1927 crown and florin were a dead heat for the last coins to introduce the me effigy rather than just the florin.

Yes, quite right. I was talking only of currency coins, but indeed the crown (which was totally new - the first of GV) was also issued.

23 hours ago, secret santa said:

No - this rare, possibly unique, penny has the modified effigy obverse but the true 1927 reverse.

Oh shoot, yes. You told me this ages ago and I forgot. Mea culpa. You're quite right. But this only reinforces that it was a late strike and nowhere near 1922. The main puzzle is why it's dated 1922 - the best theory I can come up with is that the experimental 1922 reverse was subsequently revised and finalised for use in 1927, but of course it wasn't needed 1923-25, and the 1926s use the standard earlier reverse (apart from the odd proof or prooflike strike done probably in 1926).

Edited May 25, 2017 by Peckris

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Peckris said:

None for circulation, I'd say. Even the genuine 1922-with-1927-reverse was probably just a few to experiment with and then chucked into the hopper with maybe a couple of pieces held back for the museum?

 

But clearly some did enter circulation. In the Copthorne collection, for example, Steve (Accumulator on here) got his from loose change - link 

Quote

 

Peck, Freeman and, later, Gouby became my bibles and out came the bags of bronze for a closer inspection. Soon, I was able to add many more coins to the original penny ‘date runs’. My biggest success (and star of the collection) would be the Freeman 192A “1922 Reverse of 1927”. I now believe that this is the best example known and, to think, I found it in loose change! Of course the collection has subsequently been bolstered substantially by auction purchases, especially in the area of proofs. I’m particularly proud of those from famous collections such as Norweb, Michael Freeman and Laurie Bamford, to name but three.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by 1949threepence

[terrysoldpennies]

12 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

But clearly some did enter circulation. In the Copthorne collection, for example, Steve (Accumulator on here) got his from loose change - link 

 

Talking of what was, and was not released into circulation , during the war my mother picked up in change a brass 3d piece, which to her was just a 3d bit to spend ,she at that time had absolutely no thoughts at all of coin collecting , as after all there was a war on and she was a teenager with thoughts only of spending money . Anyway, she just glancing at the coin and noticed that the tails side was different to the normal 3d, being as she said, different with more of a stylised design than normal , but then gave the coin no more thought, and passed it to the bus conductor to pay for her fare . Well, many years later , after starting to collect coins, she found out about the Edward viii 3d piece with the stylised reverse, and knew that was what she had held in her hand all those years before , she felt sick, thinking if only I had known of there existence at the time, and if only she had turned the coin over she might have noticed that it was an Edward viii 3d, and not the George vi .   I believe these were all pattern coins, and were not supposed to be released into circulation.  God knows what there worth today, maybe one of you on here has one , let us know.    It makes me wonder what may have passed through my hands without my knowing about its rarity .      Terry

[terrysoldpennies]

Obv.

[1949threepence]

Terry, what wouldn't I give to get my hands on one of those.

As you say, if only your Mum had realised all those years ago.

Then again, think of all the rare coins that have circulated, often for many decades, if not over a century, with every single owner of the coin, over time, having no clue what they held.

 

 

 

[RLC35]

56 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Obv.

FYI...

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2423152/King-Edward-VIII-Thrupenny-issued-abdication-sale-30-000.html

[1949threepence]

Only 10 - and yet a few, maybe only even one, obviously did slip into circulation.

Thanks for the link, Bob.

 

[Peckris]

21 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

But clearly some did enter circulation. In the Copthorne collection, for example, Steve (Accumulator on here) got his from loose change - link 

Sorry - I think you misunderstood me? When I said "chucked into the hopper", I meant the bin of output coins ready to be bagged up and sent to banks. After all, as far as the Mint were concerned, the experimental reverse would have been a kosher 1922 reverse, and possibly didn't think anyone would even notice the difference. They may even have had a few knocking around in employees pockets with strict instructions not to spend them, just to see how they would wear compared to the normal reverse.