The reverse dies of GVI pennies - a reappraisal

[davidrj]

The standard works on George VI pennies list three reverses:-

A - The sea level on the right extends to the centre of a border tooth; the upright limbs of N in ONE point to teeth (5 teeth from limb to limb); the exergual line consists of a large raised line with a very fine second line below it  - 1937 only

B - Similar to Reverse A except that the sea level on the right now extends to just above a border tooth; the two upright limbs of N in ONE both points to a gap; there are 4 complete teeth
between the limbs. - 1937 to 1940 (the 1940 with reverse B is usually referred to as "single exergue line"

C - Similar to Reverse B except that the exergual line is in lower relief – 2 fine lines separated by an incuse groove; the waves just above the exergue have been retouched and are now
separate  from the exergual line. - This reverse was used from 1940 to 1951. - the 1940 with reverse C is referred to as "double exergue line"

C* - Is the notation used by both Groom, and the new Freeman to describe the variety of the 1944 penny with the terminal 4 pointing to the centre of a wave. Although recut waves are cited for C* , both references list reverse C for dates 1945-1951.

I propose that C* is significantly different from C to warrent it's redefinition as die D. The exergue lines are now clearly double, making them much easier to see than on the 1940 & 1944 reverse C. The waves are sharply recut and are clear of the exergue lines. This die is used 1944 to 1951. I would argue that the 1944 varieties are not a trivial date width variation but two distinct dies

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by davidrj

[davidrj]

Pennies 1944 - 1951 - all with recut waves

[bhx7]

Very well researched with lots of good detail. I am a massive fan of this date range as it also includes lots of other great traits. Mint toning variations are fantastic giving so many varied and interesting tones.

[Nordle11]

Yes good, detailed work. I can see what you mean as well, the details for the proposed D are definitely much sharper. Playing devil's advocate though, could this not be due to re-engraving on the master hub? Therefore identical dies (theoretically) but with much better details? It would explain why the legends and Britannia match perfectly between C and D, only for the differences to be in the quality..

[terrysoldpennies]

Hi Dave , I'm not sure too much has been made of the differences between the rev.C and C* , as the date width is the only major thing of significance between them . The 1944 isn't the only date width year around that time . below are four differing 1940 dates . note the top one has the 4 over the gap and the 0 over the tooth, and the bottom the 4 is onto the tooth ,with the 0 over the gap. The common type is the second down.    Terry

[RLC35]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Hi Dave , I'm not sure too much has been made of the differences between the rev.C and C* , as the date width is the only major thing of significance between them . The 1944 isn't the only date width year around that time . below are four differing 1940 dates . note the top one has the 4 over the gap and the 0 over the tooth, and the bottom the 4 is onto the tooth ,with the 0 over the gap. The common type is the second down.    Terry

 

Terry. Is the 3rd penny down a single step type?

[terrysoldpennies]

40 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

 

Terry. Is the 3rd penny down a single step type?

All four are Double Exergue.    Terry

[PWA 1967]

The third one looked single to me 

[RLC35]

40 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

The third one looked single to me 

 

Does anyone have a close up, high quality image of a single line 1940 Penny? That seems to be something (the image) that is really hard to find.

[terrysoldpennies]

41 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

The third one looked single to me 

That was a poor picture.  The common one is on the bottom with the 4 too the right side of the gap   Terry

[bhx7]

 

4 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

 

Does anyone have a close up, high quality image of a single line 1940 Penny? That seems to be something (the image) that is really hard to find.

Just having a discussion about that very subject Bob......Would be interested to see some high quality images as well.

[PWA 1967]

Thanks Terry although i am now confused.

Is picture three the same coin you have been good enough to just photograph.

I have been looking at the waves for months and would of bought the third picture as being a single ex.

[bhx7]

So Terry, what is your feelings about these 2?????

Edited September 1, 2016 by bhx7

[IanB]

I was looking at my 1940's the other day, I mistakenly thought that I had a double exergue, so bought a single to compliment it. However when I compared the two it turns out my original was a single also.

Rather than calling them single or double, would it not be easier to call them thin and wide exergue? As to me they both look double and it's the width that gives it away.

 

[PWA 1967]

I would of bought the first one as single.......but having doubts now 

Sorry Brian just noticed you had posted above the picture as well as below.

Edited September 1, 2016 by PWA 1967
Loony

[bhx7]

1 minute ago, IanB said:

I was looking at my 1940's the other day, I mistakenly thought that I had a double exergue, so bought a single to compliment it. However when I compared the two it turns out my original was a single also.

Rather than calling them single or double, would it not be easier to call them thin and wide exergue? As to me they both look double and it's the width that gives it away.

 

I am having the same doubts at the moment Ian. Thats why I just posted mine above.....

[terrysoldpennies]

1 minute ago, PWA 1967 said:

Thanks Terry although i am now confused.

Is picture three the same coin you have been good enough to just photograph.

I have been looking at the waves for months and would of bought the third picture as being a single ex.

Right Bob . I have confused things.  Pic of all 4 ,second down is the common type, the bottom coin in the pic of 2 . and the third down is the top one in pic of 2    Sorry for the confusion   Terry

[bhx7]

6 minutes ago, bhx7 said:

So Terry, what is your feelings about these 2?????

Here is a close up of the first coin that I was sold as a SE

[terrysoldpennies]

11 minutes ago, bhx7 said:

So Terry, what is your feelings about these 2?????

Both look to be the same date spacings. common type , but the left looks like the single Exergue , though as you say not easy to tell from pictures     Terry    p s  All the new different date types were bought from America , I wonder if some sort  of special issue of pennies were despatch to or made by the Americans during the War

Edited September 1, 2016 by terrysoldpennies

[PWA 1967]

The waves merge Brian on the one on the left look at the wave on the right side of the ex it has no gap.

The N of penny also appears to be to Gap rather than tooth.

Edited September 1, 2016 by PWA 1967

[IanB]

I think the photos in the first posting shows the difference really well. 

B = thin = single

C = wide = double

9 hours ago, davidrj said:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by IanB

[bhx7]

13 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

The waves merge Brian on the one on the left look at the wave on the right side of the ex it has no gap.

The E of penny also appears to be to Gap rather than tooth.

Both E's are to a gap, just the lighting. The waves I do agree with. Just doubts creeping in.....

The right hand coin close-up just for comparison and complete the comparisons...

Edited September 1, 2016 by bhx7

[PWA 1967]

Sorry Brian i meant the N but maybe your right and it is the light 

[bhx7]

9 hours ago, davidrj said:

Pennies 1944 - 1951 - all with recut waves

Just rechecked my 1944 C* against my standard 1944 C and I definately think you have a point David. The waves from C* are cut differently than previous issues and stay that way to the end of the series. The waves are considerably more defined and the cuts within the wave are longer and more prenounced.

[RLC35]

2 hours ago, IanB said:

I think the photos in the first posting shows the difference really well. 

B = thin = single

C = wide = double

 

 

Are you saying the difference between the sngl and dbl is the "width" of the lower step?