LCA September

[Nick]

10 minutes ago, Leo said:

But the auction photographs are free, aren't they?

They are.  But they are exactly the same quality as those taken for LCGS for which they are charging a fee.  To my mind, they are not of sufficient quality to warrant any charge.

[PWA 1967]

But i assume you dont pay so it does not cost you anything.

So really just posting negatives about something you dont want,use or bothered about ?.

 

[Nick]

5 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

But i assume you dont pay so it does not cost you anything.

So really just posting negatives about something you dont want,use or bothered about ?.

 

But just because you do pay, doesn't give you the right to moderate any dissent.

[PWA 1967]

Sorry but what does dissent mean ?.

[Leo]

Perhaps the LCGS photos are more objective than the auction ones and reveal problems, where these are present, more honestly than the auction ones which have an obvious commercial purpose.

It would be interesting to compare.

[Nick]

10 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Sorry but what does dissent mean ?.

It means having an opposing point of view.

[Nick]

30 minutes ago, Leo said:

Perhaps the LCGS photos are more objective than the auction ones and reveal problems, where these are present, more honestly than the auction ones which have an obvious commercial purpose.

It would be interesting to compare.

If anybody has any photos of coins bought at LCA which were then slabbed and photographed by CGS, it would be interesting to see the comparison.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Nick

[azda]

1 hour ago, Leo said:

But the auction photographs are free, aren't they?

What Nick means that the grading arm of Londoncoins use the same photography and to be able to view these pictures they are charging £99 a year

[PWA 1967]

17 minutes ago, Nick said:

It means having an opposing point of view.

Thanks Nick.

I am of the opinion of if buying at auction i like to view or get someone i trust to have a look for me.

Dont like bidding blind or from photos from any auction unless the coin is cheap and happy to take a gamble.

Surely i have the right to give my opinion and not just agree with everyone else .

I am happy to stand on my own two feet against 99% of the forum (you brought up the grading side not LCA) and dont just jump on any wagon .

Pete.

 

[azda]

35 minutes ago, Leo said:

Perhaps the LCGS photos are more objective than the auction ones and reveal problems, where these are present, more honestly than the auction ones which have an obvious commercial purpose.

It would be interesting to compare.

But LCGS and Londoncoins are one and the same, poor pictures which don't truly represent the coin which is for sale means they are trying to push the coin out for more than it's worth. I mentioned a few years back that someone had bought a coin from Londons in a certain grade, he then sent it off to CGS for grading and it came back lower than the grade he bought it in, yet they are the same people, strange eh

[PWA 1967]

4 minutes ago, azda said:

What Nick means that the grading arm of Londoncoins use the same photography and to be able to view these pictures they are charging £99 a year

Sure everyone understands that Dave but you and most people on here does not pay the £99 so dont understand why your all bothered.

If it was £1 or £1k you would not be interested so why keep going on about it.....

[azda]

3 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Thanks Nick.

I am of the opinion of if buying at auction i like to view or get someone i trust to have a look for me.

Dont like bidding blind or from photos from any auction unless the coin is cheap and happy to take a gamble.

Surely i have the right to give my opinion and not just agree with everyone else .

I am happy to stand on my own two feet against 99% of the forum (you brought up the grading side not LCA) and dont just jump on any wagon .

Pete.

 

Surely the coins are graded by the same people.......Whether in auction or from the grading arm, this was one of the reasons they shut down CGS due to the fact both LCs and CGS (the same people) couldn't cope with the submissions of the grading arm and the submissions into their auctions

[azda]

Just now, PWA 1967 said:

Sure everyone understands that Dave but you and most people on here does not pay the £99 so dont understand why your all bothered.

If it was £1 or £1k you would not be interested so why keep going on about it.....

I'm clarifying a question raised Pete, that's why this forum exists, to answer questions, regardless if it regards CGS LCGS or Londoncoins, the concept of this has been around since the forum started and even since you joined, i know you're sick of hearing it, but there might be another 2000 people who join in the next few years who are new to all this and will ask the same questions as we're answering right now, and it will be explained again and again and again......

Get used to that......

[PWA 1967]

A lot different and you should understand that .

Three people giving an independent view on a coin and an auction house going through hundreds / thousands.

Over and out before i feel bullied 

Pete.

[1949threepence]

On 9/5/2016 at 10:51 PM, Leo said:

I'm happy, first purchases in LCA. 2 wins out of 3 bids, both within the range I was expecting.

Now I'm looking forward to see how they look in hand. I've got the impression that this house grades generously.

Actually, to be fair, I think LCA grades quite conservatively. At any rate, I've never seen one that I've looked at and/or been interested in, overgraded. If anything, they go marginally under.

Others may disagree.  

[jaggy]

Auction houses are in business to make money. But in business, reputation matters and when an auction house starts to get a reputation for being a bit dodgy then their business is going to suffer. Some of the coins, acquired at LCA and that I sent to NGC were fine and got decent grades. But some did not. So the results were a bit hit or miss. But when you are paying out good money for a coin on the basis of the auctioneers photos and description then 'hit or miss' simply isn't good enough. Fact is, none of my DNW, Buckland Dix and Wood (remember them) or Glendinning's coins came back with problems.

So, in the confidence stakes, I now perceive buying from LCA as being high risk. Will I buy from them again? Yes, but only if the coin has been slabbed or graded by NGC or PCGS. That, for me, takes most of the risk out of buying from them. I will not buy CGS slabs because 1) there is a conflict of interest with LCA, hence risk, and 2) they are not generally accepted in the marketplace.

However, I will continue to use DNW and Heritage. I am also happy to buy from Spink and Baldwins if they can get the user interface right and have material I want. But confidence is a fickle mistress. Hard to win and easy to lose. Businesses take note.

[jelida]

3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Actually, to be fair, I think LCA grades quite conservatively. At any rate, I've never seen one that I've looked at and/or been interested in, overgraded. If anything, they go marginally under.

Others may disagree.  

I agree with you, and dont think the photos are the worst either, though certainly not the best. Issues with lighting and poor white balance , even good focus seem endemic in the numismatic trade. For this reason I always try to see a coin before buying, and to that end LCA are the easiest as they are out of the centre of London and you can view even during the auction. I made a 300 mile round trip yesterday purely to view a few coins at DNW, spent 4 hours in traffic getting home, but I found verd on several of the coins that was not visible and not mentioned in the catalogue, and got a far better idea of lustre and toning. This is the reality with auctions, caveat emptor if you dont examine the wares first.

Jerry

[jaggy]

13 minutes ago, jelida said:

I agree with you, and dont think the photos are the worst either, though certainly not the best. Issues with lighting and poor white balance , even good focus seem endemic in the numismatic trade. For this reason I always try to see a coin before buying, and to that end LCA are the easiest as they are out of the centre of London and you can view even during the auction. I made a 300 mile round trip yesterday purely to view a few coins at DNW, spent 4 hours in traffic getting home, but I found verd on several of the coins that was not visible and not mentioned in the catalogue, and got a far better idea of lustre and toning. This is the reality with auctions, caveat emptor if you dont examine the wares first.

Jerry

In an increasingly global market, physical examination is not always possible. Auction businesses trying to expand their global footprint need to understand that. Confidence in the photo and the description become key business drivers. IT also explains the popularity of TPGs (at least in the USA) because it takes some of the 'caveat' out of the equation.  

[1949threepence]

22 minutes ago, jelida said:

I agree with you, and dont think the photos are the worst either, though certainly not the best. Issues with lighting and poor white balance , even good focus seem endemic in the numismatic trade. For this reason I always try to see a coin before buying, and to that end LCA are the easiest as they are out of the centre of London and you can view even during the auction. I made a 300 mile round trip yesterday purely to view a few coins at DNW, spent 4 hours in traffic getting home, but I found verd on several of the coins that was not visible and not mentioned in the catalogue, and got a far better idea of lustre and toning. This is the reality with auctions, caveat emptor if you dont examine the wares first.

Jerry

Verd is often quite difficult to spot on photos. It can be mistaken for something else, and vice versa. The F15 I obtained quite cheaply off e bay recently, has a tiny spot of verd on the reverse, which because the seller's photo was so dark, I couldn't see. One of those things.  

[VickySilver]

I sometimes think "verd" is a strong term as occasionally it is only a light veneer of oxidation which even soap and water, or the infamous acetone may be able to remove. 

Maybe its being picky, but IMO verd has oxidized into the underlying metal which has suffered irredeemable loss.

[1949threepence]

23 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

I sometimes think "verd" is a strong term as occasionally it is only a light veneer of oxidation which even soap and water, or the infamous acetone may be able to remove. 

Maybe its being picky, but IMO verd has oxidized into the underlying metal which has suffered irredeemable loss.

How do you tell the difference? 

[jelida]

There is an important difference between the green waxy material that can look like verd initially, but will wash off with acetone (or  more easily petrol, provided any oily residue is washed off with acetone after), and true verdigris, the hard green or powdery light green corrosion that has removed metal in its formation. The latter can never be removed invisibly, it will always leave pitting or worse. Unlike some, I have actually found Verdicare rather good, provided mechanical 'picking' at the verd with a cocktail stick is done as per instructions, and plenty of time is taken for it to soften.

The verd I saw on several coins yesterday was true corrosion.

Jerry

[jelida]

1 hour ago, jaggy said:

In an increasingly global market, physical examination is not always possible. Auction businesses trying to expand their global footprint need to understand that. Confidence in the photo and the description become key business drivers. IT also explains the popularity of TPGs (at least in the USA) because it takes some of the 'caveat' out of the equation.  

True, though I find the TPG's gradings to be somewhat inadequate as regards lustre and even-ness of tone, and I have on a number of occasions seen true verd in a slab. Clearly the coin cannot always be inspected, but I always make the effort when practicable. I dont think any vendor will ever be perfect, and you become more wary of some than others through individual experience,     but I would still be watching them for that 'impossible to find' coin.

Personally I like the LCA setup, though cannot comment on (L)CGS as I have never used them, though their slabs that have come my way are fine. I often use their (free) site to search past sales and review prices.

Jerry

[VickySilver]

Yes, as per Jelida. But also I have seen just a haze, not oily, that seems amenable to  removal.

 

Then of course there is the PVC slimy green that only damages the metal after longer exposure.

 

Please see my posted CGS85!!!!!! Specimen 1935 Rocking Horse with what looks to be bright green verd attacking the surface.

[Sword]

23 hours ago, Nick said:

If anybody has any photos of coins bought at LCA which were then slabbed and photographed by CGS, it would be interesting to see the comparison.

I do think CGS photos somewhat better than LCA photos. I will  give two random examples.

These are LCA photos of 1902 matt proof crown (graded as nFDC)