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DrLarry

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  1. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    LAUER Coins When I First discovered one of these time replicas 6 years ago I was at first surprised by the excellence of the design and then fascinated. So I began a 5 year journey of discovery ( sounds like the opening of star trek) to find as many as I could. I still cannot find a great deal more on the Factory of L CH Lauer in Germany and even though I have searched in the german pages of E Bay little or nothing much comes up. I assume Nurnberg Germany must have been a little like Birmingham was in the Victorian periods turning out small metal objects. Does anyone know of any research other than that mentioned in Rogers?
  2. DrLarry
    agreed
  3. DrLarry
    yes I am afraid my experience of prisons is that they are full of people with prior mental health issues. I know many see the mental health angle as a gift to anyone and everybody but I am afraid to say the reason why anyone and everybody says it sadly is that it is a realism rather than a gift. I live in a very deprived area and experience the impact on the lives of young people around me from parents who are themselves victims of their own histories. The North East , like so many has had long term underfunding and removal of almost every piece of funding that might have offered a help line. Budget cuts just see a saving and ignore at their peril the long term impact of community breakdown. It is a shame that people cannot go fund youth services locally with Go Fund Me pages. I am not a great lover of humans but I do think you have to give young people opportunities or else the crime becomes an easy option. Effective treatment of offenders requires a lot more people with a lot more patience in well run community services and true the victims too need support. I have a horrible feeling at the moment that systems play on division as a distraction one group fights another....It feels like the 70's again at the moment which was an ugly bleak miserable time. I have both Durham Prison and Franklin prison down the road so always aware of how miserable life is behind bars. I do feel something for the home owner but it is very easy to go beyond self protection.
  4. DrLarry
    isn't a large part of this due to the long long wait periods on remand before the CPS even have enough court space to hear the case?
  5. DrLarry
    I also did not watch it , and I am assuming the laws that were broken are laws that could not be changed because there is a sense of injustice in them. As mentioned the brain might not be thinking too well if just woken up angry and threatened but sadly the law can consider these circumstances but cannot alter too greatly from the reasoning behind that law even in a legal system based on precedent . I really am not sure if for the sake of property or pride it is worth pursuing someone and again it's that aspect of law that says if a person is fleeing from the place of crime they are also doing all they can to remove themselves as a threat to the homeowner. Perhaps these kind of events result from the inactivity of the police to attempt to solve crimes which results from political under funding in the last 10 years and pre-occupation of police to spend months going through millions of phone accounts as part of seeking new tech evidence for crimes . When people see no outcomes their frustrations float towards vigilantism, but it takes years for police high speed drivers to learn the skills to take up these pursuits. The law would say if he set out with intent to harm no matter what the reason he set out to cause harm . Both are wrong you would think some of it would cancel out. But damage to body is a more dangerous crime than burglary with no intent to harm. you must tell us if our views do not match the circumstances
  6. DrLarry
    The Prince seems to have had quite a lot to say on the matter and I am surprised when presented with the models and drawings a choice was made not to do something NEW with Britannia. For me (personal opinion) the Britannia on the SOHO coins makes a lot more sense . Ships sailing in from the right are coming from the west and the prevailing wind directs the sails . The Foot and legs of Britannia outstretched are reminiscent of the west Country and the shape of the British Isles matches the shape of the Britannia. the ship sailing home ...with the W Wyon Britannia I have often wondered why the ship seems to heading towards Norway up to the east with the wind blowing from the the North West. Britannia looks on waving her trident because the ship sailed seems to have missed her. It is fun to speculate why these kinds of questions were not considered. I suppose they were if the whole maritime supremacy thing is part of the written story of the penny design. Perhaps you are right and the queen was more interested in her portrait than the story playing out on the reverse. Don't get too serious ....speculation and counter speculation helps keep news or fake news alive
  7. DrLarry
    Dec 7th 1859 went to osborne to sketch for the new Bronzes Dec ( worked on the model ) Dec 16th Osborne House sitting with the queen She and the Prince "much Pleased" The queen gave him a phot0 of herself. March 27 1860 went to Buckingham Palace Queen and Prince Consort criticised the likeness for the new penny .... "I made a rough sketch of queens profile which which she was pleased" March 30th Buckingham Palace "few trifling criticisms" gave him another long sitting for a pencil outline . June 20th Saw pennies and half pennies being struck then on July 4th there is an entry which says "Bad news today The Queen wishes the portraits on the new copper coins to be altered. July 21 received a letter from Mr Graham concerning the bronze coinage which I fear may stop our Journey "(holiday) July 21st to Mr Graham. Obtained permission to leave town on score of ill health. Worked till very late in the evening on the half penny die The he went on HOLIDAY for a month. there then seems to be nothing until the following year January 7th 1861. To the mint . Had great satisfaction seeing pence and half pence struck well from the new dies , whish I trust will be complete all I have to do with the coinage. it seems that he had to alter many things and Gladstone writes to the Treasury that these extra expenses were not of his making. "beyond the control of the artist" he seems to have altered the puncheons twice once in May and and eventually delivering them inJune production began in september 1860 They then had to wait until the proclamation on the 4 December to release them.The in Jan 1863 a further payment was made "for the alteration of the dies of the bronze coinage" there are interesting accounts of the 3 designs one remained in the Wyon family a drawing in the Nat Museum in Scotland and a relief plaque of a standing Britannia with a ship and a pharos in the background. Sainthill and others pushed for the traditional seated version (based on some idea that France was trying to deprive Britain's supremacy over the the seas). There were both problems with the BRITT abbreviation and WYON had not included space for the F:D
  8. DrLarry
    I suppose it all hinges on if the homeowner used reasonable force to apprehend or defend his property from the criminals. Chances are pursuing using a car becomes a tool (much like a gun) to cause physical harm to the criminals. Sadly I think the law will find in favour of the criminals because a car is a potentially lethal weapon and whilst he was acting under duress he continued to pursue (with intent to cause harm) so can no longer justify a continued chase over a certain distance. In rage and in fear both parties are likely to cause harm to others innocent bystanders in their actions. Adrenaline fuelled reactions are always dangerous. It is sad it may have been a mitigating circumstance in the loss of the unborn child.
  9. DrLarry
    in his diary I think three are mentioned one at Buckingham Palace and two at Osborne House but I will go back and check. My feeling is he wanted to depart from the seated Britannia and create something very NEW...but was pushed by the old guard to look backwards rather than forwards. The Original standing britannia went to New Zealand another sketch exists in a collection in the U.S I will check the details in the Diary , I have not read it for a couple of years
  10. DrLarry
    You miss the point of my interest in it . The position of the other Britannias is not so much an issue in all of those the trident is pulled towards the body and the position of the arm to elbow is in balance, the hand grasps the trident in a relaxed manner the older Wyons design is artistically relaxed and has or is in equilibrium. My intrigue into the Wyon design stems from trying to understand the mindset of the artist and the design . He is known to have wanted to move far away from the seated Britannia designing originally a standing Britannia. The anatomical problems in the hand and arm are not necessary in the design and trying to understand the nman is my interest. A penny is a penny, what's done is done but if, by questioning such things, we learn somethings about the man then my " in for a penny" is on discovery and analysis. The portrait still has it's problems but a portrait is more likely to be stylised to fit on a coin, he did have to return to the queen 3? times to get something that was acceptable to Her, Albert and others I am sure. It is strange reading the "re-written" edited diaries of Queen Victoria there isn't much of a mention of any of these portrait issues. But then we don't know for sure they were edited by her daughter
  11. DrLarry
    For me the question is one of quality of work, when I look at all other work Wyon Produced the attention to detail is excellent . Of course, I know, we are dealing with a new metal but some of the quality of the design is just about C grade. This is me looking at it from an anatomical point of view artistically. Reading the diaries you get the idea he was pretty sick of the whole venture and I think the venture may have contributed to his sickness at this time too. Sure, as I have said before, the average punter sees something different and accepts it. I have been struck looking at them solidly for the last 5 years or so since I have collected, how poor the design is "close up". It is anatomically impossible to get a model into the position of the Britannia without dislocation or blunt trauma to the hand. So I have wondered in my fairy dust tinkerbell moments if some of the engraving and alterations were done by someone a lot less able than Wyon. It also does not surprise me that his name was taken off ....I would have asked to have it removed if I were the artist. Anyways it's all pie in the sky or Lucy along with her diamonds and if that particular chemical had have been involved I would certainly understand the eventual outcome. I love the bun penny it is however just WRONG. I offer a prize to anyone who can contort their arm shoulder and hand finger arrangement to match it and take a photo to prove it.... PERHAPS AN ANNUAL COMPETITION ON HERE FOR THE CLOSEST i'LL OFFER £20 AS A STARTER lol
  12. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    The main hazard of dealing with and identifying toy coins is the size, so it unsurprising that variations were missed in the publication in 1990. The expansion of this section alone increases the number of variants by at least a factor of 3 often 4 for each number assigned to it by Rogers. Does it matter? well I hope that by looking something new is being discovered and sometimes things shock me and I discover things under my own nose I have missed. As Rogers remarks there are a number of punctuation difference reported presumably not seen by him but there is a wide variation in the modelling and layout. He also wisely adds ""Others will probably be found". Rogers 1990 Galata Pub. page 46 I find it fascinating that one set the PRINCE less set shows such variation along with the ones found also in the USA hidden inside the smugglers coin.
  13. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    Princess Louisa Born March 18th 1848 The three I have do not show a great deal of difference on the obverse , however the reverse do show some differences. Now it maybe that the one listed in Rogers #277 does in truth show this feature or it may be that this is an intermediate run after the date was corrected. Rogers notes that an error date of the 19th of march exists and I have just seen that the PRINCELESS set contains such a date (which came a pleasant surprise to me 5 seconds ago shown below) #277a , mine show an 18th march and a second an 8 over a 9 and on both the date is 1848 (although both of my 8 over 9's also have the same error on the 8 of 48 which might suggest the 1849 existed first and was corrected by the 8 in subsequent dies. A second error type exists #277b with 1849 as the birth year. I have argued that the PRINCESS set is earlier so perhaps the error was made and then corrected with an 8 over 9 and or the 18th date was a third issue. Also the position of the head in this set is different with the nose pointing to the I whereas the other point to the U the 19th 19th error #277a 8 over 9 normal 18 8 over 9 in year
  14. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    PRINCESS ALICE : I have three possible additions to ROGERS #274 . There appear to be three portraits for the obverse and 3 reverses . One is struck medal style the other coin style. On one of the reverses a date error has occurred and instead of APRIL 25 1843 it reads APRIL 23 5 over 3 1843 The three obverses seem to suggest changes perhaps ageing of the children the face elongates and the nose becomes more prominent as does the chin. The back of the head has several additional curls and the hair longer. The long haired version "the YOUNGER HEAD" has an unbarred A in ALICE the nose points between the C and the E the "older HEAD" the nose points higher to the E . The older head is struck coin the younger head struck medal )in one) the other is coin. The older head has the 5 over the 3 . A third reverse is found on the "PRINCE LESS" set larger legend and possibly even younger head Could we surmise that the remodelling of these heads was done each year of issue as the children aged? this is from the PRINCE less set young headold head the medal and the coin reverse setting and the princeless reverse larger script and arced ALICE 5 over 3normal italic date a third reverse
  15. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    I mentioned the other day a wonderful piece of good luck I purchased by complete accident a "smugglers" two pence from the US inside was a set of these little medalettes. Both the PRINCE less " set and this one came from the US. That is not to say that is where they started but looking at them today both seem to have this unlisted PRINCE ........OF WALES type. likely they are from two different sets as one is uncirculated the other worn . It is strange that they should all be this type possibly suggesting maybe export ?
  16. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    the reverses subtle differences in the Beading , with no punctuation in the lower two in the date yet a point after HELENA in the third , obviously someone got the date wrong in the one from the "PRINCE less " set as a 3 has been used instead of a 5 in the date no point (dot) between a second possible error may have been to put 1848 instead of 1846 in the birth year 1. (A) 2 (B) 3. (C)
  17. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    Three new unlisted versions of Princess Helena, The one listed in Rogers #276 seems to have HELENA written in very small script . On the three here plus the one in the "PRInce less " set there are four different portrait types all with larger lettering so we must assume that different sets were made up at different times perhaps for each issue. The most obvious re design in the third is the additional hair at the back with an unbarred A. The youngest again is in #3 which shows the lower part of the face typically compressed in the younger head. there are variation in script and position 1. (A) 2.(B)) 3.(C)
  18. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    I suppose that is the Joy of studying an areas of so little interest you get to make new discoveries every day ....and it makes me feel GREAT
  19. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    for comparison The one from the PRINCE less set make then 4 dies for the Queens Head
  20. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    yes it does seem that all of the medalets in the "PRINCE less" set are different The portrait of Victoria is much more finely cut than all the others (below) she appears younger
  21. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    it is such a useful exercise doing this and posting the images because it is so much easier to compare the similarity and the differences in this tiny characters even under the microscope the brain cannot look so easily at all the same time . So thanks for the chance to add new varieties to this great book by David de Sola Rogers printed by Galata Books in 1990 such a nice things to be able to do on cold evenings : it's also so astonishingly expensive so perhaps this will get more people interested. BUT YOU NEED A MICROSCOPE
  22. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    possible 4th small colons no dot after 9 and no dot after WALES (D) actually I just found a fifth version in the set that contained the ALBERT without the Prince This new one is quite a departure the PRINCE on one side the OF WALES on another, this was found in the ALBERT without PRINCE so if the PRINCELESS version was before ALBERT was made Prince Consort perhaps these are the earliest ones ?
  23. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    The Prince of WALES this comes as no surprise to me but so far I have 5 different obverse dies for this portrait each of them with differing lettering and remodelled head . The Small Head (rather crudely cut) large lettering with the P of Prince touching the bust with a distinct beaded border away from the edge; 2. The Long neck (as it says) beaded border ut the bead close to the edge The P is below the truncation; 3, seems to have two variants with the P nearer to the point of the back truncation but the lettering of the two seem lightly different the nose (i think) pointing to the space between W and A and the other slightly lower to the A more . All the reversese are also different 1. has dots and larger lettering ; 2.Colons and spaced beading and a different font; 3. has spaced colons and a dot after WALES 1. (A) 2 (B) 3. (C)
  24. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    The reveres are also different : punctuation marks after 1844 and the size of the lettering differs and a colon between the AUG and 6
  25. DrLarry

    TOY COINS

    DrLarry replied to DrLarry's topic in Free for all

    Prince Alfred two head types and two reverse One has an additional curl at the back of the head onto the neck and the neck s more curved ; the other the head is straighter on one he seems to be smiling mouth slightly ajar and the position of the nose is different high on the F and lower on the other the neck is fatter ( in preparation of things to come perhaps) Again importantly in the PRINCe LESS set there is a third version of the PRINCE ALFRED the mouth is open with different lettering
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