Coinery

This post has unfolded quite unexpectedly, really nice when that happens. I’m definitely 1 & 2…primarily 1 & 2…but knowledge and the vanity that accompanies it, sometimes gets me a little excited by 3, in the hope I may one day achieve 5, as I endlessly haemorrhage in pursuit of this staggering beautiful and fascinating pastime!

Ahh, now collecting and ‘connecting’ with a holed piece is altogether a different animal…I’ve worn an Elizabeth sixpence on a leather necklace for over 30 years now, and will likely die with one, given my lifestyle. I’ve never purposely drilled one, but have lost two now, that I hope will one day hang with historic pride around someone else’s neck! Who knows, it could easily be another 500 years before my last necklace gets found…amazing…and I hope so 🙏

I think it might be a new eBay thing? I had a coin in my eBay watch list and knew the seller’s business details (he would pay fees on eBay). I eventually decided I wanted it and offered a lesser amount for an off-eBay deal. He ended the item on eBay, which then sat in my ‘ended items’ for a while before disappearing without trace, like it was never listed on eBay…I’ve never seen that before?

I was just SO tempted to drop a one-liner here, it’s begging for the obvious, but I thought better of it!

This is the same question you asked here I think? https://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/14799-penny-henry-iii/

Yes I agree with the above, very difficult to price a holed coin, near impossible I’d say? Speaking for myself, I don’t think I’d even gap-fill with a holed coin…I don’t think? Instead I’ve simply come to accept the fact I’m never going to complete ANY series. Sad but true!

Could also be worth a look here too! https://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/14620-resource-henry-iii-pennies-by-rob-page/

I of course totally misread the question

Hi Rene…take a look on here, it’s a great resource. Equally, LVND and LVNDE is used frequently and interchangeably across many coins. https://www.rodblunt.com/short-cross-pennies

100% and clear example, brilliant. Thank goodness for medieval pennies too

Ah, yes, I see where you’re going with that. I’m going to be honest, I really don’t know the finer points of all the different class letters, though I believe the angle-back from 11b onwards to be much more pronounced? From a brief look around at other earlier coins I can see letters with a similar amount of ‘point,’ so I’m not convinced, especially with the other reverse letters so much in the style of the obverse legend? However, that isn’t to say you’re not right…my new book is certainly going to help with these finer points, as it’s phenomenal in its detail, even down to the developing flaws on various letter punches. It’s a huge body of work, it’s going to take a lot of deciphering and time…can’t wait, though, best book I’ve ever bought! I will read it with your particular question in mind, and keep feeding back until we have it nailed!

The obverse is 10cf2 I believe. Just out of interest, what makes you think the reverse is 11b, the reverse lettering looks classic 10 to me and correlates well with the obverse style?

There are a couple of earlier class examples, but as with other later class examples they are considered to be uncommon to mostly rare. Your variety is known and listed in Withers Galata Guide, I’ve added the relevant part for your reference. A nice addition to your collection, well done

Amazing that they’d gamble an 1800+ positive feedback on something like this? Crazy!

Equally, the bottom lip of the upper image extends beyond the top lip, plus the cheek has a flatter profile on one. Also, and I realise it’s exaggerated by one of the images being slightly tilted, but the alignment of her features below the nose are also very different!

Just seeing this for the first time…were there thought to be any differences in those bust profiles, because clearly there are?

Credit as attached!

So it looks like the only defining difference, according to Withers, between type 1 and 2 is the pellet in annulet at the centre of the reverse cross hence, I’m guessing, the migration of the lombardic H into type 2? Obviously Lis pm is Type 1 only, but these can also be pm none. Type 2 is none. They’ve grouped the third and the posthumous coins together, they say, because of a lack of clarity, with separations previously being uncertainly made by the Lombardic/Roman H. Whitton says punctuation with saltire/trefoil being third issue, and pellet/lozenge representing the posthumous issue. You’ll obviously know a lot of the above, it’s only added to the question for easy assimilation of the new details. All interesting stuff. Oh, and the red dots represent illustrated coins (not always matching ob/rev, though, so worth bearing that in mind). Edit: this is of course for Tower coinage, I didn’t look at anything else. Interestingly, I was just looking at North and he separates the 3rd/posthumous tower coins by Roman/lombardic lettering, whereas the SCBC goes with the Withers’ distinction (or vice versa).

In bed, post nights…will come back at this tomorrow. Speak soon

Just collected my book from the mother-in-laws… So, assuming that’s a Roman H, we’re talking Type 2 (no IM) with only one documented ’standard’ reverse (rev a) with no errors mentioned. I did look through the earlier reverse dies of Henry’s reign, just in case it was an earlier die, but no mention of inverted G for D throughout his reign. There are 11 obverses recorded for Type 2…easier to attach than quote (credit the Galata Guide to Small Change, P & B Withers 2023)

Here’s another example of a no-contraction class 8 (this one’s 8a)! I only took a closer look because I wondered whether it was a die-match for yours…sadly it’s not, so the 8a 8b saga continues.

It’s definitely not a class 9, different bust and eyes entirely, plus the legend is much less ‘chunky’ on the 9a1 - you only have to decide which S you have, and then you can decide whether it’s an 8a or 8b I have to be honest and say I’m not exposed to enough of these coins to make a call either way on what S you have, you’ll probably need to find an identical coin/die, with hopefully the S undamaged. I’m reliably informed that class 8 is a rarer class and a difficult group to collect in better grades, so you might have some searching to do!

Here are the notches on my 8a and 8c with clear contraction marks but, as I mentioned, it’s well documented that they don’t all have them.

It’s an 8a or 8b with the S being the deciding factor, whether it’s a top-tilted S or not? If it were mine I’d be looking for a die-match to decide, once and for all, which S’s they are, though there may be some here with sharper/more honed eyes than mine, who can say which S that is? re the apostrophes, they don’t all have them.

Yes I was referring to the bead you mentioned…it sits pretty well protected in a channel between deep devices and looks to be present, even on Jerry’s low-grade example? Of course, if it’s common across other obverses, it’s nothing but a moot point.