seuk

Thanks! A loose collar sounds right, since the 8 reales 'blanks' diffrenced in size and 40,41 and 42 mm dies were used for the BoE dollars - I guess the 8 reales were not even uniform within these 3 size variations.

What does the edge of a typical 1804 bank dollar looks like? Flat or slightly rounded – and are traces of the original Spanish-American edge design often or rarely visible? Two of my counterfeit BoE dollars. The left one with a rounded trapezoid shaped edge, and the one on the right almost flat.

3 - If beneath the impression of the die it's probably marks from the rolling of the metal sheet or the blanks.

These pictures have been around for a while. The die (pic 7+8) is for the 1822 crown (not 1899 as stated). Probably this very common forgery:

It's quite possible - but as I said I'm no expert on this issue. My guess is that you don't need the actual coin to make a die. You'll probably just need the dimensions + a good picture.

I like the bottom coin much better as all details are much bolder. The two coins clearly share the same die design - however they can't be from the same die unless it was reengraved. Fx.the lines of the bust and around the bust are different.

It has the same thin lettering so I would suspect it to be another fake - Also I don't like the overall design but as I have no knowledge of these coins you should find one who is familiar with the series. Here's a link to the norwegian thread (its in norwegian but I guess a google translate will work) http://www.samlerforum.no/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14145

I would be surprised if those are genuine - the seller has sold several forgeries of Norwegian coins of a similar thin lettered design.

Different coins but probably just as 'valuable': http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Anglo-Saxon-Viking-Penny-king-Cnut-/131898733996?hash=item1eb5c6f5ac:g:gvkAAOSwCfdXo1cF http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ancient-European-Anglo-Saxon-Edward-Silver-Coin-Penny-Vikings-FREE-SHIPPING-/122070509040?hash=item1c6bf825f0:g:kD8AAOSwSgJXNk http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ancient-European-Anglo-Saxon-Silver-Coin-Penny-of-Ethelred-II-Vikings-FREE-SHIP-/122070513193?hash=item1c6bf83629:g:s0IAAOSwtnpXoRXS

He's got another one...: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Anglo-Saxon-Viking-Penny-king-Cnut-/131898733472?hash=item1eb5c6f3a0:g:H~oAAOSwhOdXo1Z

There seems to be some problem with the link to the norwegian forum - however the link to eBay should work. Here's a link to the skilling coin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/European-Norway-Dansk-Silver-Coin-1-skilling-1658-Norge-FREE-SHIPPING/122020821143?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D041b3ca86b48474e928987dffa46cf30%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D122020793853 - He has some anglo-saxon coins for sale which looks fake to me too.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/breggmann/m.html?item=122020821143&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 Some of the listed coins appears to be fake and has a strange thin/irregular design and lettering in common. The seller/coins has been discussed on this Norwegian forum for a while (http://www.samlerforum.no/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14145)

My first counterfeit 1808 third-guinea. Now I have 11 different contemporary counterfeit third-guineas dating between 1797-1808 and know of another four variations. Unfortunately the counterfeit gold coins are also wanted by some collectors of gaming tokens so there're more competition in this field than with the silver counterfeits This one however only cost me £11

In the Booth trial there's an interesting comment regarding some of the coins which were found at the farm: "Mr. Brownell corroborated John Ingeley as to finding the can and edging tools on the Saturday; he produced them - in the can were six dollars and ten 3s. pieces; they were singly wrapped up in paper, so as to separate them; the dollars were marked on the edges, to have the appearance of having been old Spanish dollars re-stamped." However none of the counterfeit bank dollars I've seen have such markings! Perhaps the adding of an edge design where a late invention of Booth and so only a handful were produced prior to his arrest? The few genuine dollars I've had has been low grade examples with a smooth edge. So I'm wondering how the edge of the uncirculated bank dollars looks and feels? Is it normal for them to have traces of the original Spanish edge design?

I'm refering to Sheffield Plate. http://www.jamesbaldwinantiques.com/articles.php?articleID=1 Electroplating is of a later date, about 1840/50s and onwards. The most common way of silvering in this period (1800-1830) is ,as I understand, known as 'silver wash', a thin silverish layer which are easily worn off - However I need to learn more about the several methods of silver coating which were used back then.

I forgot to note that the Booth Dollar is found with both silver plate and silver wash. My guess is that the washed variation is of later date (1811). One of the mysteries regarding contemporary counterfeits is the disappearance of silver plate counterfeits round this date. Another interesting point is that Patrick used large punches for the bust and reverse design. The last one probably being a rough outline of the design with details afterwards engraved by hand.

Benjamin Patrick is perhaps best known as the engraver of the Perry Barr Penny token issued by William Booth, the notorious forger who was hanged in 1812. Booth was charged and convicted for forgery of bank notes and coins (the Bank Dollar, 3/- and 1/6) issued by the Bank of England. However this is not Patrick’s only connection with forgery. In a case against the coiner William Henshall, who was transported in 1806 for counterfeiting the Bank Dollar, a Benjamin Patrick (of Phillip’s Salutation Public House in Snow Hill, Birmingham) is mentioned as engraver of counterfeit bank-note plates together with a relative(?) Washington Patrick. I was therefore hoping that the study of the die punches used for the penny token would shed some light on the matter. The original token is unfortunately quite rare and expensive, but thanks to Bente and Paul Withers (Galata) I now have a useful photo. Of Booths counterfeits we know the 1/6 since a hoard of these was discovered in 1956 about half a mile from Booths farm. The Birmingham Museum & Art Gallery also has a Bank Dollar which was found at the farm, only the 3/- remains unidentified. It is possible that Booth also made counterfeits of other coins such as the Third-Guinea, however only the above coins are mentioned in his court case. 1804 BANK DOLLAR Of the 41 counterfeit bank dollars I’ve seen so far; 20 have been cast or produced by transfer dies. The other 21 are milled from engraved dies and of these there are 3 different obverses and 5 reverses. The dies are obvious the work of two different engravers. The letter punches used for the counterfeit Bank Dollar found at Booths farm (below) are of type I. When the large letters of counterfeit I are compared with the large letters used for the Booth token there’s no mistake – the design is exactly the same! All evidence therefore point to Benjamin Patrick as the engraver of both token and counterfeit. The Booth dollar is known only with the same obverse-reverse combination. There is however another obverse combined with 3 different reverses engraved by Patrick. Obverse 1 – Nose to I of Gratia Obverse 2 – Nose to TI of Gratia, leaves of laurel wreath almost touching E of DEI, X of Rex very close to bust Reverse 1 – 8 of 1804 directly under 1st L of Dollar - 2nd S of Shillings points to L of England – N of Shillings points directly to 1st N of England Reverse 2 – 8 of 1804 directly under 1st L of Dollar - 2nd S of Shillings between GL of England Reverse 3 – 8 of 1804 to the right under 1st L of Dollar - 2nd S of Shillings between GL of England Reverse 4 – as reverse 1 but N of Shillings to the left under 1st N of England We know that William Henshall counterfeited the Bank Dollar but according to the article the dies was manufactured by himself – possible by some sort of transfer method? There are several counterfeit bank dollars which design are exactly the same as the genuine coins only the details are somewhat blurred like on a cast coin, perhaps some of these are the product of Henshall? Or perhaps Henshall coins are so scarce that I just haven’t seen any yet? I think the 2nd Patrick obverse, together with reverse 2-4, are likely to have been engraved at the same time as Booths (1810-11) since they are very similar in style. Henshall’s counterfeits were done in 1805 and if Patrick had been the engraver I would expect the dies to be of a somewhat different style. So for now the coiner using the 2nd obverse remains unknown. to be continued... References Peter Lane and Peter Fleig: William Henshall: Maker of NSW Holey Dollars and Dumps (Numismatic Association of Australia - NAAJ 15 2004) Paul and Bente Withers: British copper tokens 1811-1820 The trial at large of William Booth and his associates, George Scot, the three Yates's, John Barrows and Elizabeth Childlow for Forgery, Coining etc. at the Stafford summer assizes, 1812, before Mr. Justice Le Blanc. (Gower and Smart 1812)

Here's the old thread abouth Gothic Crown forgeries. The coin in question doesn't have the same marks as those forgeries - so if counterfeit it's from a different source.

Coin 4 is Constantine I (the great) from Ticinum (ca. 318/20) - reverse: Victoriae Laetae Princ Perp

Danish - However my older sister (now deceased) lived and worked in Manchester and London (Barkingside) for a number of years back in the 1980/90s where I sometimes visited her for a week or two during the summer. Remember going to a small market (think it was on The Strand?) sort of a hole in the wall, where a number of dealers were selling postage stamps and probably also coins etc. - it was a good place to find Cinderellas (poster and revenue stamps) which I collected back then.

Yes - Zealand, on the outskirts of Copenhagen - I would probably never had a chance to collect British counterfeits if it wasn't for the internet (eBay).

Poulsen is also me

My main interest is in the first part of the 19 Ct. but I do have a few scans which may be of interest - will get in touch.

The Token Book (Galata) would be a good place to start I think. http://www.galata.co.uk/store.asp?storeAction=showDetail&stockID=18 Galata has many other books for sale covering various corners of the token field.

From the photo both looks as E's to me. Punches can be quite impossible to compare when the condition is poor. If a B punch was used it should probably look like the B of Britannia as used for the reverse.