seuk

I'll be visiting London this weekend, staying in Bayswater. Any dealers/flea markets in the area worth checking out?

And the toned one with no grade advertised (getting on for VF I'd say) is in better state of preservation than the one described UNC - which has clearly been cleaned. That looks more like eBay tomfoolery than fakery. I've bought two of each 'grade' so it will be interesting to see if there's any difference at all He's also selling the 1818 halfcrown - listed under Germany! (guess its the Hanoverian connection )

I think this is as good a place as any to list counterfeits. There are of course more than one factory operating in China (and elsewhere). Some make high quality fakes others low. In some cases I suspect the same masters are used for both. I once bought a Danish 1771 skilling in high quality on ebay. Its one of the most common Danish coins but much collected and rare varities reach faily good prices. A year or two later my coin was reproduced in China!: http://www.jinghuashei.com/html/product/100929235950752.html (of UK coins he only have the 1822 crown for sale at the moment - however in two different grades ) They made the same mistake as with the George III halfcrown - turning the reverse upside down. I'm pretty sure they never had the coin in hand if so it must had been before I bough it. Its more likely that they simply used the ebay auction picture and perhaps a lower grade coin in order to have the size and weight fairly accurate.

"On Saturday last, Mr. Payn, attended by several assistants, entered the premises of Samuel and James Ingley, situated in the Lower Priory, in Birmingham, and found them at work stamping the blanks of three shilling pieces, a great number of which were in a state ready for circulation. They are very well executed, ring well and shrill, and are of the date of 1811. The offenders were secured and lodged in prison, with a large quantity of blanks and finished pieces, and on Monday they were brought up for examination and committed to the county gaol" Leicester Journal. 29 July 1814* Normally this would be just another report from the heydays of counterfeiting under George III. However in 1980 Antony Gunstone** descriped two counterfeits from the collection of the Birmingham City Museum. A finished coin punched: S. INGLEY'S COUNTERFEIT and a blank punched: A COUNTERFEIT BLANK. / OF / S. AND S. J. INGLEY'S, / (rosette) WHO WERE TRIED AT / WARWICK ASSIZES, 1814: / AND TRANSPORTED. / FOR 14 YEARS. / (rosette) Of course I was very excited to find out if I had one of these counterfeits in my collection. And I had! This counterfeit is of a unique type having very large lettering. So far I've seen two out of 37 counterfeit coins, both from the same dies which are also the same dies as used for the example in Birmingham City Museum. Although my material is of little statistic significance it seems likely that the Ingley production was done on a fairly small scale, perhaps only involving one pair of dies. The counterfeit of the famous coiner William Booth also included the 3 shillings Bank Token of 1811. A hoard of counterfeit 1s. 6d. Bank Tokens found in 1956 at Perry Barr, Birmingham could be a key to identify some of Booths production. I've yet to see a photo of these coins of which a few should be in the Birmingham City Museum. (Curiously two of Booths servants were Richard and Dorothy Ingley who may have been related to Samuel and James***.) *) R.A. Rutland: Counterfeit British Currency 1811-17: A Leicester Viewpoint. - Seaby's Coin & Medal Bulletin No. 744, Aug. 1980 **) Antony Gunstone: Counterfeit Bank of England Tokens. - Spink's Numismatic Circular, Vol.88, No. 12, Dec. 1980 ***)John Powell: The Birmingham Coiners 1770-1816 - History Today, Vol. 43, July 1993

A 9th century update to Frakish standard of the series X design ...happy to have the Sceatta though

Case closed - got this reply from Dr David Symons, Curator of Antiquities and Numismatics at Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery. "I am afraid that the website maker must have garbled the story slightly if it said it is Booth´s Bank of England token forgeries which were later copied. Booth made his own copper trade tokens, with his name on them, as a cover for his forging activities, and it is these copper tokens which were forged by other people later on, when Booth had become infamous and collectors wanted specimens of his tokens."

Can't be the same - not with 3 years between them. Can you make a scan?

Well spotted! Mine doesn't have one... Mine does... but it's not the same extra one. Interesting - almost like on the shilling.

Hmm...not sure what to call the small dots in the garter - spikes perhaps? Anyway, was taking a closer look at some scans and discovered there was a dot on one of the 1816 sixpence's which was not supposed to be there...:

Yes - I've written him saying that this is likely a fake and asked if the reverse die is rotated.

Yes - I left it out since my gold copy don't have this error. None the less Seuk, it should be noted so others can see what they are looking for. Well I think at this point its more important to make clear which errors are on all of the counterfeits. My copies are obviously 2nd class and so may have more errors than the best copies. It would be fun though if there's a slowly degeneration taking place, one will however need a larger number of coins for study. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250889358366?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Yes - I left it out since my gold copy don't have this error.

Great - we can add a few details then. The chinese as far I know have made both high and low quality fakes from the same masters, so some of them may looks convincing when shown in an auction picture... On my two coins the first lion has part of tail missing and both have areas of weak or missing background lines.

Just got a second copy of the modern Chinese forgery with reverse turned a 180 degree. I'm not sure how much has been written about them - anyway even though my two coins are from different years (1818 and 1819) and one is golden and the other trying to look like silver they seems to have a number of 'repeating depressions' which I've tried to mark on the following scan. Most prominent are on obverse: an extra bead over E in DEI on Reverse: dot in cross of crown + two notchs over PE of PENSE

Oh posted in the wrong thread - should have been in: Coin aquisition of the week

Just got 30+ George III counterfeits

Got two 1814 1s 6d both from the same dies as yours ... The later Bank Tokens are less common than 1811. For the 1s 6d I only have two 1812 (1st+2nd bust) and no other dates except for the two copies of 1814. And for the 3s; 1812 (2nd bust) and 1815 are fairly common. But I've only seen one copy each of 1813+1814 and no 1812 (1st bust).

According to: http://www.worldofmoney.birminghamblackhistory.com/story.html the William Booth counterfeits of the 1811 bank tokens were counterfeited in the late 19th century this time for collectors! Anyone who can confirm this? I have round twenty 1811-counterfeits mostly of the 3 shilling which all looks like normal period fakes ... except perhaps for one: This counterfeit has uncommonly large lettering but could still be a 'genuine' period counterfeit unless someone can prove otherwise? Also does anyone know excactly which type of coins were counterfeited by Booth? Andrew Wager list the 1s 6d, 3s. and the 1804 crown (The Mystery of Henry Morgan, Barkham's Press 2007)

Thanks! Think I understand it better now

Just bought a lot of contemporay counterfeits for my George III collection. In it were also a number of later fakes and then this 1974 one penny descriped as: "1974 Penny, split in half giving the appearance of a brockage." Now the flan is very thin 0.69-0.76 mm (rim 0.86-1.19 mm), but the raised rim and ghost impression on reverse seems to indicate that it's not simply a split coin? Also the raised rim on obverse is high and sharp on the lower half of the coin. Any ideas?

http://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/ have many different 'coins' for sale - Can't remember if I've seen this particular coin on ebay before but I've seen a few others - some even with the R mark clearly visible. Does anyone know of other reproduction companies? (Westair) It would be great if somewhere one could view the entire output of these reproduction as I guess their products change over the years. There are of course also the chinese fakes. But it's seems to me that few British coins have been produced at least compared to other countries: http://www.jinghuashei.com/html/category/class_459.html

In this case there will be a tracking code which is what paypal asks for if the item is not received. I've never had a paypal case going beyond that point so I don't know what actually happens when fx an item is fake. My guess is that the buyer would have to return it and provide a tracking code to prove it?

His auction description reads: No returns accepted -Anyone who knows how easy it is to have a paypal payment refunded, if you report an item as fake after receiving it? He didn't post this one: Q: This coin is a reproduction! See: http://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/images/no354.jpg - same dies and flan which is impossible for a hammered coin. Best regards, Peter - seuk880 A: well maybe so i wouldnt no myself one has just sold for 40 pound identical to this one - 09riverwearvalley

Here's another one I've seen a few times...: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Silver-Anglo-Saxon-Coin-/120740469523?pt=UK_Coins_BritishHammered_RL&hash=item1c1cb15b13 And here's were you can buy it at £1.60 http://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/images/no354.jpg As far I know all these 'museumreproductions' are marked with a large R, however it can easily be removed.

This varity is not descriped in the study by Manville and Gaspar (BNJ vol. 74 2004) but is reported on both the with and without hearts main types of the 1787 shilling. I have a shilling with a dot close to the top of the 8 (no hearts) however it could be anything unless someone can comfirm that it's the same die as the varity... Would be nice if anyone could provide pictures of this varity