Bronze & Copper Collector

This is a copy of a post I made in another forum last year with some addtional edits..... It is apropos of this thread..... I am an USA collector of some US coinage and of GB copper and bronze. While I agree that many (most) US collectors are much too caught up in the HIGH NUMERICAL grades (in search of perfection), and paying exhorbitant prices for otherwise common coins, there are some good points about slabbing. I have many low grade RARE coins, that I sent away to be certified by one of the REPUTABLE slabbing services, only because I wanted to use them as a means to protect my investment. Primarily by certifying that the coins in question were GENUINE and not ALTERED or COUNTERFEIT. Most of the scarce and rare dates of USA coins have been counterfeited because of the extreme prices that they are bringing. And, no matter how trained the collector, or how sophisticated he or his equipment may be, the fakes are capable of fooling even the best. The reputable (IMPORTANT) 3rd party services have the best equipment and are trained to catch these spurious specimens (a few do not). Although not perfect, it is still as near to it as you can get, especially when the reputable companies back their services with a guarantee. This is one GOOD reason to use them in some instances, although I too, like the feel of the coin itself. Unfortunately, in this day and age, it is a compromise that must be made. To address the issue of errors in attribution, I whole heartedly agree. I have received MANY British Bronze coins that were mis-attributed from ALL the major services. The most common error being the "HONI SO" on Victoria's shoulder being confused with the designers signature. In conversations that I have had with PCGS, NGC, ANACS, PCI, and ICG at different times regarding the mis-attributions, the most common answer I received was "we could not positively confirm the variety". Off the record, they admitted that they did not have enough specialists in British coinage to do the job, and that some of the references that we "collector specialists" used, were NOT "recognized reference books". As comprehensive as Freeman is, there have been new discoveries NOT included within his book. Gouby and Satin, although accepted as Bibles within the community, are not accepted by the 3rd party experts even when documentation was forwarded along with the coins, whereas Freeman and Peck are. Quite possibly, if a 3rd party service were to set up a business in the UK, with the intention of focusing primarily in the coins of GB, then there would most likely be less of a problem with mis-attributions and a wider acceptance of slabbed coinage, at least in certain circumstances. However, when a NON-US coin, especially with an esoteric attribution, is sent to a 3rd party service that specializes in US coinage (as most of their business is generated that way), one should not be too surprised at the level of dissatisfaction involved. Thanks for letting me get this said.....

Thanks for the replies... At least now I have a rough idea of it's value.... I don't collect patterns as a general rule, but I might keep this one as a curiosity......

HI, Can anyone give me an idea of what this coin is worth??? I believe it's a Peck-1083 pattern penny.... I can't find any sales records of it, so I have no idea of what its value might be..... Thanks

If you compare the I's, they both look identical, with the same imperfections... Also, the linear circle about 5-6 teeth before Britt is clearly recut on the original specimen and appears to be the same on the 2nd example... It's not clear in the image, but I think that I can see the same flaw at that point... A clearer image or direct examination would settle the matter as to whether this is the same die or not.....

Hi Gary, Congratulations on finding another R/B half penny..... I think that they are apparently the same, as the top of the R, which looks like it's doubled or such, is actually slightly damaged..... If you look at the R where the apparent doubling occurs, it's NOT the same shape as a normal R, but rather narrower... If you laid the R's on top of each other, I think that they would match perfectly ....... Of course it's impossible to tell with any certainty without direct examination, but that's my first opinion..... Regards

1956 F-474 Obverse CLOSE-UP

1956 F-474 Obverse

1956 F-474 Reverse CLOSE-UP

1956 F-474 Reverse

I'll have him get in touch with you..... several of the interesting variants are mine anyway, so there shouldn't be a problem...... When is your next edition coming out??? I still have to send you the disk of images that we discussed awhile back.....

The F-277 1st 1/1 is on the CD, although not in the article..... The CD has images of MOST of the different obverses and reverses with information on determining which variety is which...... An essential aid for comparison I have several other variants not in the article, that he has pictured on the CD... I'll PM his email address to you.... I think he is currently out of town, so I don't know how often he is able to check his email.....

The series of articles by Iain Dracott ran in the April, May, & July 2004 issues of Coin News.... I attach a scan of differences from an EXCELLENT reference CD published by Malcolm Lewendon... He has based his work upon Mr. Dracott's articles and this CD is a logical extension of it. It is now in its second edition. If you wish to purchase it, I will provide you with his email address..... Or you can send me yours, and I will forward it to him......

I believe these to be the 2 varieties specified by Iain Dracott in his 2004 article on half pennies. In addition to the Short hair/Long variation between the two, he also notes the following additional differences: SHORT Hair (Reverse A): WIDE SPACED "6 0" in date Shield Crosses have DOUBLE INCUSE lines Thinner LEFT wrist of Britannia, SHORTER Hair on back of neck WEAK flag pole on ship LONG Hair (Reverse A#): CLOSER SPACED "60" in date LOWER RIGHT section of St. Andrews Cross now has TRIPLE INCUSE lines Thicker LEFT wrist of Britannia, LONGER Hair on back of neck STRONGER flag pole on ship, NO incuse line near shield base

Look for the 2nd edition, from 1986.... another excellent reference (for pennies) is "The British Bronze Penny" by Michael Gouby .... it doesn't cover half pennies or farthings though......

Note the diffferent positioning of the 1 of the date, relative to the tooth beneath it....

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I only know of 2 (possibly 3) that have changed hands in the last few years, and about 5 in major collections. plus the one that started this thread......... even if you double that number that still only amounts to 18....... Still EXTREMELY RARE, and even more so because it is RECOGNIZED and DESIREABLE......

Sorry, I couldn't edit my response above to add the following...... The 5 examples that I have had at one time or another, as well as the few others that I have seen, all had this trait as well.....

PS: In reference to the N/Z, In adddition to the N/Z and the recut O in one, I think they all also have a recut or doubled A in Victoria on the obverse...

Well said... A RARITY is RARE.. regardless of its condition..... and they are always CLASSIC, IDENTIFIABLE, and in DEMAND......

No problem, we all learn from one another......