Bronze & Copper Collector

Footnote 11 in Freeman, lists the thickness as 2.25 mm..... No weight given.....

Freeman lists the thick planchet as 2.25 mm thick.... (Maybe I passed on a good buy???.. It happens).....

HI Hussulo, I had watched the coin on ebay but had my doubts..... I had meant to email you about the coin to see whether it WAS a thick planchet...... Please keep me posted......

With the following information, you can easily prove that a specimen is NOT a true NO H, or, with a bit more research, prove that one is an F-112....... Quoted from Tony Clayton's very informative website...... http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/penny.html (My comment: it would help to have both obverses to compare as you relate to the information below........ Both reverses too, if you're not familiar with those either) "The 1882 penny without mintmark is particularly rare (and not in Peck), but watch for worn coins where the mintmark has been worn away. A variety with the bar missing from the H is known. The following is a description of how to tell a genuine 1882 no H from an 1882H penny, as kindly related by the Penny specialist Bernie: The identifiable features of the genuine non "H" 1882 penny are a flat shield on the reverse, NOT convex. Victoria has an apparent hooked nose, caused by a weak die strike in the area of the eyeball. The "R" and the "I" in "BRITT" should not be joined; a very small space should be visible with a magnifier. There is a tuft of hair protruding from the back of the neck, left of the ribbon knot. This tuft of hair is always visible on very worn specimens. The "H" variety can be clarified by examining the space encapsulated by the inner ribbon, as if the uppermost section forms a point in this triangulated section, then it is the common variety. The rare non "H" does not terminate in a point because of the tuft of hair mentioned above. I should add that there are two types of obverse and reverse for 1882H pennies, and that the 1882 No H penny has the less common types - having these characteristics does not ensure that it is a No H, but having the characteristics of the other types confirms that there was an H even if worn away. "

Possibly also because any purported 1882 NO H (F-112) pennies are NOT.... I believe 2 were sold recently.... I have EXTREME doubts about the one, and am not convinced on the other........ Mine is well worn (and acquired from an unimpeachable source), yet identifiable using the diagnostics listed on Tony Clayton's website.... (an explanation of what to look for from Freeman & Gouby, which can easily eliminate the "pretenders" and help confirm genuine specimens.....) a few years back, a major auction firm sold a purported 1882 no H that even the consignor did not believe to be that variety and when I requested and examined images, it was obvious it was NOT an F-112..... Potential buyers may be VERY hesitant to purchase a coin in low grade for a large amount of money, regardless of how rare it is, because they are not sure that it is that variety....... Despite the results of the Bamford sale, I'm sure that if a SUPERB QUALITY specimen became available, it would command the premium that it deserves (relative to the series, not in comparison to the same rarity in US coins.... an issue that enables to to own many of the classic rarities in the Bronze series, and is slowly resolving itself)

Just the pictures of the 6/6 that I posted on CU....... As I said, to the best of my knowlege, the 6/8 is actually a 6 over higher 6....... which looks similar to the 6/8 F-30 penny, but is not the same.......

For the Farthing specialists...... Link to Auction

According to Iain Dracott's definitive article on Victorian Bunhead HalfPennies.... He mentions for 1870, 1871, and 1873, that "some have wider dates"........

It just occurred to me that there may be a reason for this coin being fairly common in low grade but pretty rare in say EF and above. Quite simply, a new coinage was launched in 1860 and many people who were not naturally coin collectors put examples aside. Given that this variety would in all probability not have hit the streets until 1861, most 'keepsake' coins would already have been happily sitting in drawers. It is also extremely unlikely that collectors of the time were that interested in such esoteric varieties, and hence F17 became quite scarce in the higher grades.

Off the top of my head, I think I have somewhere between 5-8 of them... not counting another 8 or so that I have disposed of already...... MOSTLY LOW GRADE THOUGH... The F-17 in higher grades are very difficult to find and command a large premium......

Yes... The son definitely follows in his father's footsteps.... He was a highly respected coin dealer when he was in business

The coin in question has been returned.... and a full refund issued.... We will be informed of future developments in the investigation of what this actually is.... I'd like to thank everyone for their input and commend the seller for his integrity and forthrightness in this transaction.......

Latest Update.... I have been in conversation with both the seller and the owner of the coin, and it has been shipped back to him today..... Amongst the reasons given for my doubt were the following..... 1: The rock formation to the left of the lighthouse is as on the toothed border, not as on the beaded border.... 2: The Beads (?) are closer to the rim than on beaded border, very much like a toothed border.... touching in some areas, indicative od a toothed border........ 3: The Beads (?) seem a trifle thicker that beads, more like teeth...... 4: The 0 in 1860 is touching the linear circle, which it does not do in any known specimen of the mule..... 5: It appears to be an obverse 3, not am obverse 2.... The owner will do further investigation and follow-up studies on the coin, and will keep us informed of the progress and any ultimate determination.....

I know that there is also an unrecorded mule variety with obverse 3, but this is on obverse 2, so speculation on the matter of that die combination is moot....

Here is an email that I just sent to the seller regarding the coin.... HI Mark,, As per our conversation,, I am attaching the 2400 DPI scans of the coin, as well as images of my current specimen of the mule, along with the images of a toothed and beaded border reverses that I had sent to you last week..... As I told you, although there are areas of the border that look like beads, there are also areas that look like teeth, and the slab itself is preventing closer examination.... Anyway, these are the prinicipal points of doubt (and there may be more)... 1: The rock formation to the left of the lighthouse is as on the toothed border, not as on the beaded border.... 2: The Beads (?) are closer to the rim than on beaded border, very much like a toothed border.... touching in some areas, indicative od a toothed border........ 3: The Beads (?) seem a trifle thicker that beads, more like teeth...... 4: The 0 in 1860 is touching the linear circle, which it does not do in any known specimen of the mule..... Just from examining these points, I am very hesitant to absolutely conclude that this is a mule, although I find it somewhat difficult to believe that PCGS would get something as simple as this attribution incorrect.... but that may be exactly what happened.... And the only way to be absolutely sure is to crack it out of the slab, which I don't want to do at this point, especially if it has been mis-attributed and we need to get PCGS involved.... Regards, Gary

I should also add that the color is MUCH nicer in reality.. the scanner does NOT do it justice... Lots of red... not dull as scanned.....

Hello Everyone.... The coin in question arrived today... VERY FAST SHIPPING..... I believe it to be the MULE FARTHING... It is virtually impossible to get a decent angle to take a photograph, but I did scan it at 2400 DPI.... I posted the image on a websote and have links to it here... REVERSE OBVERSE The images are LARGE in size, but if you study the reverse, you CAN see the beads of the border very clearly at certain points...... I'd like to hear comments from the forum regarding the coin though....

The coin has been shipped to me today.... I should receive it towards the end of the week.... I'll let you know the result once I receive the coin......

I'm pleased that you found this forum and have made this statement, as it makes me feel even more at ease in this transaction, especially should the coin turn out to have been mis-attributed, and I have to return it to you.... I will let the forum know the outcome in either instance... I'm sure, in either scenario, the forum members will have no trepidation in bidding on your items in the future, since you have been so forthright about this item, with your assessment and return guarantee.... Also, speaking for myself and the forum, since I have met your father in the past... We all wish him well.... I'm pleased that you found the forum and made this post here, as it may allay some of the questions that have arisen over this coin, and has also provided me with a little more piece of mind, should the coin turn out to have been mis-attributed, and I have to ask for a refund.... I'm also sure, that in either instance.. and I will let the forum know the outcome.... there will be no trepidation to purchase from you in the future.... Speaking for myself and the forum, as I have met him in the past... We all wish him well ......

That's me..... I know that there has been a question as to whether this was mis-attributed.. The seller did send me new pics, which did look like RB's... I send him images of both and he says it is like the RB reverse..... I know of his father, whose collection/stock this is from.... He said that he will guarantee the coin with a return privilege.... I will make sure to put that into the paypal payment to cover myself...... and hope that I won't have any problems......

I now have an F-479.... The offer still stands on the others...... I have now acquired a specimen of the 1970 obverse 3 reverse K half penny (see attached)... Still looking for both 1970's with reverse I....... As I now have both obverse varieties of the 1970, I will offer $50 each for the FIRST specimen of obverse 3, and obverse 4 PAIRED with REVERSE I.... Also, $50 for a circulated example of a 1911 half penny with Gouby Obverse A & Reverse B..... will pay more for an EF or better specimen...... HAPPY HUNTING!!!!

If you're for real, come on in, register, and join in the mayhem.....

I now have an F-479.... The offer still stands on the others......

wishful thinking....

Does anyone have any catalogs, references, or other information, listing specific varieties and dates, of the silver and copper Birmingham Workhouse Tokens of 1811-1814.....that can scan the pertinent pages, and email them to me.... Thanks ....