TomGoodheart

LOL I've only just returned to this topic and , my .. didn't it get heated! Anyway, for my own twopenn'orth, I am old, though I've only been collecting for 8 1/2 years and feel I can see both sides to the argument. I quite understand the protection aspect, particularly for copper or matte proofs, that's really a no brainer. You don't want marks on your pristine coins .. protect them. And I can sympathise with the autenticity aspect, particularly since there seem to be an alarming number of replica coins that I for one can't identify! But in the end, I don't collect copper, proofs or modern milled coins! The coins I do collect have been handled by collectors for many, many years and as Dave said earlier, I like that aspect. I am holding a piece of history that has passed through the hands of collectors, soldiers, tinkers and who knows who else. So slabs aren't for me, because they diminish that experience. To be honest I still tend to see the TPG thing as reflecting two different aspects to the coin collecting hobby. There are those like me, Peter and others, who like to be able to hold a coin. Sure it's maybe not pristine, but then I don't much like those shiny 'as new' museum cleaned hoard coins either. A bit of toning, a bit of history, makes a coin more appealng to me. And then there are those like the cited example where they will trade up their 'UNC 80' as soon as they see an 'UNC 82'. That's not me. I'm not after 'the best ever' or filling every gap, or having a collection with a certified and verifiable value. That's a different sort of coin collecting. For me to upgrade there has to be a good reason to do so and I remain to be convinced that a 2 point grading is good enough. So. tarring everyone with my brush, I think there are 'The Americans' and their sort of collecting and for many (most?), slabs etc fit that style of collecting well. Then there are the 'mahogany tray' collectors like me, who think a little paper ticket and some provenance is more important than raw grade. Neither is WRONG. They are just DIFFERENT. And so my only gripe I guess is the suggestion that I'm going to have to change, that my collecting habits are out of step with the rest of the world. I don't agree of course. I think there is room for both slabs/TPGs and shall we say, traditional, collectors to coexist. Yes, slabs will continue to prosper. TPGs are big commercial companies that are moving to monopolise (just look at ebay's US policies to bear that out!) The US market, and so the TPG market is huge. But there will continue to be coins that aren't worth slabbing and collectors that will break open a slab and those that are left cold by slabs but, when they first see a mahogany tray with coins all sat on their little felt disks, will think, "wow, that's the sort of collection I want".

Oh, come on now. Didn't you see that it is "A Splendid Highly Collectable Example "!? ... that and the fact that this is eBay, not the real world of course. It's not that bad an example as they come, with the question being whether you want one or do you want the gap. You would pay into 4 figures for any shilling around the EF mark with E or E* below. High grade examples are seriously rare. True about the gap thing, and scarcity of better grades. My Spink gives £45 for F, £250 VF. It will be interesting to see if it hits the £100 mark, which I'd put at the maximum I'd have been prepared to pay when I was interested in that sort of thing ... the current price is about right maybe. Of course, it just squeaks into the Scottish coin market too which seems fairly buoyant at present ... we'll see.

Oh, come on now. Didn't you see that it is "A Splendid Highly Collectable Example "!? ... that and the fact that this is eBay, not the real world of course.

Quite. I've quoted this before but in the into to the Coincraft catalogue Richard Lobel quotes an early mentor of his who said "when you go to value a coin it is what you have not seen rather than what you have seen that matters" and this is particularly true of grading. Some very common coins are almost impossible to find in decent condition, particularly the hammered series where a round, centrally struck, even, unclipped example would be well worth snapping up if ever you saw one. Whereas others are quite easy to find. The key of course, is knowing which is which!

Yes, I had an email from Gillian saying they didn't photograph hammered coins because it doesn't do them justice and suggesting coming to the next fair they attend. I didn't bother suggesting better photography and in the end a trip from Buckinghamshire to Newark didn't appeal, so a potential sale lost here too. But hey, maybe they can afford to lose customers. After all, there's plenty of money about and small businesses are doing better than ever I hear.

And there I think is the problem. TPGs encourage people to be lazy and, rather than in the old days learning how to grade coins to their own satisfaction, many now rely upon someone else's opinion. There is a suggestion that grading is an absolute science, but of course, it's not or we wouldn't get any changes upon resubmission, would we? But that aside, I guess I don't really have much of a problem with graded and slabbed coins, so long as they aren't ones I collect! If people want to fret about whether their cent is MS64 or MS65, 'finest known' or whatever, fine. Since US coins are graded using the Sheldon scale anyway, sticking a coin in a plastic slab doesn't make much difference and I can see the advantages of protecting the things from sticky fingers and knocks. But when TPGs try to use the same standards on English hammered, well, I'm not happy with that! For a start, as everyone should know, it takes experience to grade coins. You need to have seen enough to compare one against another. But also, I would question whether the precentage of wear a hammered coin has had is a useful measure. For accuracy you need to know both what a 'perfect' as struck example might look like. And also have an idea what condition the coin you are grading was in when it left the mint. Die and striking variations can mean that a coin that has had a lot of wear (but was very well struck to start with) is much more appealing than one as sharp as it was on day 1, but from an uneven flan or poor strike. From that perspective slabs simply make it difficult to photograph a coin and tricky to see how round it is (those four little supporting 'spurs' might be better but they still obscure parts of the edge). And really, even with UK dealers, I tend to rely on what I think of a coin, well before I see what grade they have given it. As for US TPGs well, I personally just don't think they have enough experience to voice an opinion. I have posted this wonderful piece of hyperbole before because it amuses me. And while the coin is sharply stuck, is it good looking? Not so much in my opinion... http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=31&lot=2161

I use the vcoins search function which works pretty well, rather than by dealer or category. But I think only a few UK dealers are represented there and agree more would be good. I also find it strange when dealers use a website like a mailing list. Now when I collected milled coins I'd risk buying from a description in a mailing list. But with hammered coins I need a photo. OK, it takes time and I guess bandwidth. But I'm no longer prepared to buy sight unseen. For a start, I'm much more likely to pick up interesting details than most dealers will notice, but mostly because 'eye appeal' is an essential element in hammered coins. You can have two very similarly graded coins, but one might be much more appealing to me than the other for reasons that I'd find difficult to explain. As for people who have photos but don't post them or who just have thumbnails, well, I've tired of emailing dealers asking for pictures. Now if there aren't any or they are unclear I tend to just move on I'm afraid ..

I am starting to wonder if grading hasn't .. slipped a bit everywhere. Certainly I've noticed a few dealers who worked for major companies before setting up on their own being ... more generous with their grading than they would ever have been allowed to get away with earlier in their career. Oh, and this caught my eye the other day. Coin on the left was graded 'generally good fine, better in places' when sold by Bonhams in 2006. Coin on the right, currently on sale through Baldwins graded .. very fine. OK, the difference between good fine and very fine is not great and there is some subjectivity ... but doesn't very fine sound better? And probably will command a better price too.

Well, there's always vcoins, which operates like that and does have some UK dealers. I think the nice thing about online was that it was (AFAIK) smaller dealers who used it and, though I never met him, Andy provided a friendly service. As I say, in its day there were some good coins there. Maybe it's just easier to set up your own website now and those who would have joined online have done their own thing? Or maybe it was down to turnover in the end? I know the dealer sites I visit most often are those that regularly add new stock.

Yes, it's basically a follow on from the research done on calorie restriction and longevity. But in a more managable form for people who don't have a team of doctors and nutritionists to advise them on their precise calorific requirements and ensure they are getting the optimum nutrition from their restricted diet.

Something to do with those polished Churchill crowns:

That's an excellent idea. I did try to do something similar with Google Custom Searches, but it doesn't work exactly like I'd hoped. I wanted to search for a specific coin across a list of dealers websites. It'd be great if someone could do that, and I can't believe I'm the only one who'd like to be able to do it. Chris!!!! We have a new project for you!

Looks in decent condition so don't be tempted to clean it as this will leave little fine scratches that detract from the appearance (and value) and store it somewhere it won't knock against other coins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9_vGtbjHPQ Anyone else see this programme? 'Background' article here: Eat, Fast, Live Longer

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe that Andy Bruce who used to run it either left, or took a back seat. When I last looked at his ebay listings they were all for furniture. For some time now I think the only active seller has been Rendel Ingram, who has mentioned in recent listings that photos of coins were unavailable because the site had run out of bandwidth. I did try to email Andy a while back (he's a member here too) but got no reply. And Rendel has his own site where he lists coins. I guess you could email him? http://www.ringramcoins.com/english_coins_antique_coins_catalogue.shtml But I'm assuming the site may be broken with nobody available to fix it. Sad. I got quite a few very decent coins from Andy, most of which I still have in my collection.

Interesting. The bit at the bottom might indicate (regnal) year 29, but beyond that .. no idea! My only suggestion is somewhere like cointalk forum or you might try Tim Wilkes. Never spoken to the chap, but he specialises in Indian and Islamic coins and this looks a bit like one of those to me!

Showing your age John. One day you'll be old enough to be happy with a Glenlivet and not the blonde from down the road. That's when to really complain!

Meh... As everyone knows, milled coins aren't my forte. That would be eating mince pies, but setting that aside, I personally can't see anything EF about your shilling Dave. For that I would expect the garter to be crisper and the letters sharper. I did once have a Charley II shilling where you could read the garter motto. I know some coins are softly struck (William III's seem particularly prone to this). But I would grade as gVF.

Mughal maybe? India? Half rupee? Size (diameter in mm) and a pic of other side of the coin might help Hax!

FUTURE CURRENCY. SURVIVAL. POST APOCALYPSE. BOOK OF ELI. MAD MAX. "IT'S STARTED ALREADY, HYPER INFLATION, NATIONAL DEBT, CURRENCIES STARTING TO FAIL. WE'VE ALL SEEN THE MOVIES, POST APOCALYPSE, MONEY, ANY MONEY, WILL BE WORTHLESS. SO AFTER THE PROVERBIAL FAN HAS BEEN WELL AND TRULY HIT WE WILL BE BACK TO THE BARTER SYSTEM, TRADING IN ANYTHING THAT IS OF VALUE TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE. SO WHAT COULD BE SOMETHING THAT THE HUMAN RACE CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT, VITAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF THE SPECIES, EASILY CARRIED IN CONVENIENTLY SMALL INDIVIDUAL SEALED BLUE SACHETS? WHO KNOWS WHAT FUTURE VALUE THESE WILL HAVE?. I HAVE SPENT MANY YEARS BUILDING UP THIS COLLECTION ( APPROXIMATELY 150 IN 1 GRAM SACHETS )OF INFLATION PROOF "FUTURE CURRENCY" FROM ( JUST IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T GUESSED YET ), CERTAIN BAGS OF THINLY SLICED FRIED POTATO SNACKS, NOT FROM "SALT YOUR OWN" OR OTHER GENERIC COPIES, BUT FROM THE ORIGINATORS OF SAID SNACK. SOME OF THE SACHETS ARE INCREDIBLY RARE, YOU KNOW SOMETIMES WHEN YOU OPEN A PACK AND NO MATTER HOW LONG YOU SEARCH THE SACHET IS MISSING, THEN MONTHS LATER THE MISSING ONE TURNS UP IN A DIFFERENT BAG ALONG WITH ANOTHER ONE! I MEAN, HOW LUCKY IS THAT? THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE OF THESE IN THIS COLLECTION, BUT SINCE I DROPPED THEM I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONES THEY ARE NOW, PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT A BIT MORE ABOUT THAT ONE. ANYWAY, SOMETHING HAS CROPPED UP THAT I NEED ORDINARY " MONEY" FOR AND THE PEOPLE AT THE DEALERSHIP DON'T APPEAR TO HAVE THE SAME FORESIGHT REGARDING THE FUTURE VALUE OF THESE AS I DO! SO UNFORTUNATELY I WILL HAVE TO TRADE EARLIER THAN EXPECTED. SO BE PREPARED, GET SOME FUTURE PROOF CURRENCY NOW BEFORE EVERYONE CATCHES ON OR HEAVEN FORBID I'M BOUGHT OUT BY BILLY GATES. "

I see their cataloguing is its usual amusing shambles. Philip? tetradrachm? Hey, let's list that under 'T' for The Roman Province of Syria and Cilicia, after 64 B.C., silver tetradrachm, wt. 15.6g., in the name of Philip Philadelphos ... ..idiots.

Yeah, I don't think you did anything wrong Chris. As Azda says, we had a problem with spam and quite a few new accounts were purged. Looks like yours was accidentally included. But hey, at least we get to say "Welcome" again!

What everyone else said! Basically the differential between lower grade coins and the better ones seems to keep increasing. Which means, as Peck said, buying the best example you can will normally be the best course. The problem being, learning what grade (condition) a coin is, rather than what someone (particularly on ebay!) claims! And while some people do collect anything and everything, it helps the learning process if you narrow down the types of coins you are looking for. Some types of coins can be had quite easily within your budget. Very nice copper pennies for example can be had for £50 to £300. Whereas silver crowns will, in general, be quite a bit pricier and when you get to Civil War siege coins ... well, you'll need to save your pennies a bit more! You need to buy something that appeals to you. But it can also be frustrating if you can only afford one or two purchases a year. (My budget is so small, I'm in that situation! I'd be happy with £100 a month!) So your choice might need to be a compromise. So, despite the temptation, I'd suggest not rushing in. Read a bit, borrow a coin book from the library, or buy one from Chris who runs this site. Decide what you like and check prices to see how many you can afford. And remember, there's a wealth of knowledge from members here, all to be had for free. Ask questions, I've found it's the best way to learn.

When I did a search (search " Histria coin Gemini" ) there were a lot of these about. And virtually all on ebay. Now I'm not saying that someone knocked out thousands of modern copies of the things and I don't know the area so can't comment on authenticity .. but when you see something unusual and the only source is ebay .. it does make me cautious. Edit. I did a search on vcoins for Thrace and some came up under 'Istros', so maybe they're fine. The diameter will tell whether it's a stater, drachm or whatever. The two heads are the Twins / gemini /Doiscuri.

I had a look to see if Lindner still make the budget coin case I have which has 160x260mm trays, but it appears not I'm afraid. Hopefully someone else can help. They still do a 165x 165 box, but it only has 9 spaces http://www.predecimal.com/coin-case-with-square-compartments-lindner-2005-p-18040.html?