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For anyone wanting to get a free pdf of Dalton and Hamer see http://provincialtokencoinage.weebly.com/ and see the "download book in pdf format" link.

Just wanted to share a few thoughts after reading through discussions elsewhere on the Forum where some members seem to take issue with what is called an "American" phenomenon when talking about TPGs and slabbing/grading coins. Hey, maybe this did open a can of worms and Pandora's box all at the same time Another large, active coin forum on the Interweb is The Silver Forum. As many of you already know, it's a UK-based forum with the majority of its membership being western Europeans (mostly British) with a sprinkling of us Yanks and some Asian collectors. One of the most active threads across the entire forum is "NGC Grading Submissions Open" where forum members can send their raw numismatic/modern coins (sometimes in bulk) to one member who coordinates periodic, large group, submissions to NGC (God bless him for having the constitution and patience to do that). Keeping in mind that 85+% of forum members are British and EU collectors, I believe it's reasonable to say there are plenty of folks on your side of the pond as well that enjoy and find value in collecting slabbed coins. Long-standing, well-respected European auction houses are beginning to offer more coins at auction already slabbed and graded. In fact, here's a case study for us all to follow and I find this truly interesting because we can objectively track this and have follow-up discussion after it's over. I was perusing the preview catalogue for the DNW "Coins, Historical Medals & Paper Money" auction to take place on 13 & 14 December 2017. I'm looking to acquire an 1887 Crown for my denomination year set. To my pleasant surprise they already have two that will be auctioned, both in high grade. Something caught my eye though...one is in "About As Struck" condition and the other is "Almost As Struck". Both look nearly identical but the About As Struck coin has an estimate of £1200 - £1500 while the Almost As Struck is estimated at £120 - £150. That can't be right. There's no way there's that much difference between "About" and "Almost" to warrant that kind of disparity. Surely it's a typo on the About As Struck coin, it too must be £120 -£150. So I clicked on the About As Struck to see if there was any additional information and lo and behold..."slabbed NGC MS 64". So virtually the same coin almost down to identical appearance and because one is raw stating it's UNC and the other coin has been "verified" MS it will likely sell for ten times as much. If I'm a coin dealer and I can sell an 1887 Crown for £120 - £150 raw stating "About As Struck" or I can spend about £30 more of my own money and if the exact same coin comes back mid to upper MS grade it'll sell either in my shop or at auction for £1200 - £1500 (and the market will bear it, i.e., clients are willing to pay you £1200), I'll likely pursue that business model. Some may say, so what? This proves nothing. A fool and his money are quickly parted. The argument as I've seen it here is that the only people benefiting from slabbing/grading coins are the TPGs themselves. I think this would show otherwise. If you're a collector who has no interest in the future investment potential of the coins you decide collect then this may be irrelevant. So we'll see, right? It'll be interesting to track "The Tale of Two Crowns" and come back together on 15/12/17 to discuss. In closing, did slabbing/grading start in America? I assume so but I'm not 100% on that. Is there a higher concentration in the U.S. of collectors who prefer slabbed/graded coins? I'd concede that. Am I butt hurt that when critical opinions are given of slabbed/graded coins sometimes there's "American" also in the comment? No. I just want to put forward that this phenomenon isn't geographically isolated to one population of collectors. I'm also a huge fan of "to each his own" and I really appreciate and value different opinions and perspectives. So I'm interested in your thoughts. Has this piqued your interest or curiosity at all? Love to hear your take.

Really love that florin!

When it looks wrong and weighs wrong...............................................it is.

You know the most worrying thing of all. This now the norm for fakebay . I see a less than rosey future if they don't do something to police their site. And despite the buyer guarantee spiel it's going through that process that takes an age. The why do I have to wait a month for my money the seller closed his account ? why are you trying to contact him? he doesn't exist. Even if you phone to speak to someone they have a bot on every call trained to answer every question except the one you're asking. With the inevitable do you wish to return to the menu? You can contact us via the help section bla bla bla. run by doogooders who have jack to do with bloody paypal lol

Haha.......i received 2 messages so i am more popular!! I think the words " threatening", " aggressive" "honest" "report" and "ebay" amongst others were mentioned. So he has been busy. Though why the words....its a fake...and another...and another annoyed him so much i,ve no idea. I did reply back to him and ask why he felt the need to send me these messages. After all all i was only answering his question of "What is this?" and asked him if it was supposed to be some guessing game for naive customers. Never received a reply.

Yep. Not cheap, but invaluable. And no, not available online. The internet wasn't about in 1958.

That is the point of saleroom notices. It is very easy to make a mistake when cataloguing, and equally difficult to proof read, particularly on multiple lots. Let them know, and they will correct it. It doesn't serve any auctioneer to give a misleading description, as they will only get the coin returned.

I'm waiting for one of those offers now Declan, everything is photographed and ready to go lol

It has been discussed at length on here since Chris started the forum. Do not read too much into estimates. This is a function of the reserve set by the vendor as you are not permitted to have a reserve higher than the top estimate. If you have a coin that will normally go for about £100, then the estimate would logically be say £60-80. If you have somneone who says I want to receive £200 for my normally £100 coin, then the estimate will have to increase to take account of the reserve. All it needs is one person to submit a bid and the coin sells - thus giving the illusion that a new base level has been set for that type. The auction house will charge a fee whether it sells or not. The high prices are likely aimed at US buyers who will pay according to the number, though £1200-1500 for an 1887 crown that isn't a proof seems a bit steep. Yes slabbing is more popular in the US than here and yes it did start there, but there are some on this forum who are UK based and also prefer slabs such as PWA and The Coinery (not Coinery). The attraction of slabs is assisted by those who just want to buy a product off the shelf. That in a way is why slabs could take off to a larger extent in the UK, but it is certainly not going to be highly correlated with someone interested in the study of coins, as your sample material is protected from serious examination by the plastic.

The thing is that all these numbers are relative because there is no way in any shape or form that you are going to be able to compile an accurate corpus for anything but the rarest items, and even then it isn't guaranteed. If Peck (author of the BM catalogue published in 1958, English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the BM 1558-1958) assigned a rarity to a variety, it was always going to be loosely based on his personal experience over the years. The same goes for Alan Rayner and ESC where the rarities are way out in some cases. Nobody can be expected to find all examples of anything, not least because a lot of collectors hold things close to their chest, or maybe haven't looked hard enough at the coin in the first place. Some things are mis-atttributed. There is no failsafe method of catching all examples and rejecting all mis-attributions, just what you can work out yourself.

Gotcha...so there are multiple rarity rating scales with different rating criteria? Ugh. Love for it to be like the Hobbit...one scale to rule them all.

IMO, Michael Marsh, author of The Gold Sovereign, has an easy to understand rarity rating guide although I'm not sure if different rarity rating scales are used with specific coins (it would obviously be Sovereigns in this case): C3 - Extremely Common C2 - Very Common C - Common N - Normal S - Scarce R - Rare R2 - Very Rare R3 - Extremely Rare R4 - 11 - 20 examples estimated to have survived R5 - 5 - 10 examples estimated to have survived R6 - 3 or 4 examples known to exist R7 - 1 or 2 examples known to exist Just another data point for consideration...

If your planning on selling anything of value on ebay, its worth waiting until they have their £1 or 5% final valuations fee on offer. They sometimes have this offer on for a couple of days per month.

After having sex with them

Scarce is more common than R. Also, if looking at Peck for example, a currency thing assigned as very rare can equate to multiples of the numbers for many patterns assigned VR. Do your homework and assign the rarity ratings you think apply. Every R, S, N or C and their subdivisions in whatever tome is simply a guestimate. Not everything that is written should be taken as gospel, but equally, everything that is written gives you a starting point that you can adjust along the way as your knowledge improves, so is still inherently useful.

Traditionally, it went from 1 to 5 Rs. The last is unique. Make your own definition up for the others because they are all uncertain numbers. A bit like the Freeman or ESC splits, where you treat the actual number with a pinch of salt, because they are frequently adrift from reality too, it's just that people want to believe in what they read and love to assign an absolute number to things, especially the ones that say unique, or nearly so. .

Yes but surely I should know before I purchase what the cost is and not find out once i have paid?

I'm not aware of any recent changes to the fees. I think the last one was eBay charging a %age on everything, including postage. All that meant was the postage charge had to increase to reflect the fees. I can't stand ebay and their policies of indifference to sellers, but given the number of eyeballs do list cheap things on the wife's account. I gave up on my own account 10 years ago. Now I start something of nominal value or a piece of crap at a quid, and I'm happy if they go for that as it enables me to get a business card to a potential customer. Somewhere along the line a buyer will visit the site, look at something costing £2 and realise it is legible, not bent, not corroded, and ultimately cheaper in all probability than they paid. It is no good telling people that they are throwing good money after bad on eBay, they need to realise themselves. Postage is £3, which some people consider excessive, but after all postage, fee and tax considerations, it leaves you with £1.14 for an item starting at a quid. So as far as I am concerned, I am doing my bit for education, not ripping people off, adding contacts to the customer list, saving myself a trip to the scrapper. It's a win, win, win, win ... situation. The only negative is funding a company with indifferent ethical standards. Think dodgy dealers and tax receipts.

Same reason your average estate agent charges more for a more expensive property for doing the same amount of work! I agree entirely about these grading outfits. The practice has hijacked the common sense approach to numismatics that presumably did exist in the US before they came about. Add to that the astronomical inflation that eBay seems to engender for rubbish coins and we have the scenario where idiots pay for poor examples to be graded.

Yeah - I was thinking that as well - the Commonwealth fake had no takers but the other two had attracted several 'victims'!

The lengths people will go, to sell an old tin..... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-TIN-CONTAINING-A-LARGE-JOB-LOT-OF-OLD-COINS-9-99/401423600095?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

I like it as well don't leave the cabinet door unlocked . I always steered away from them because of the weak strikes and the shallow design features. But when you get one like that and I guess it was an early struck coin Lovely crisp lines then they are a joy to have. With the focus always on the 1905-08-09 the other dates can be sourced at much less than they should be. I think all UNC florins of edward are scarce

I have done the same, but I agree there is small hope eBay will pull them!

I,ve reported most if his listings to ebay, but i guess its a bit late in the day for even ebay to get them taken down. I answered all his questions of "What is this?" by saying its a fake....and another...and another...etc. He knows perfectly well what they are.

and another... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Unusual-small-coin-what-is-it/162720585108?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D46150%26meid%3D769cabace1df441aae56f7380e3dd7b5%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162715425188&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Unusual-Large-Coin-What-is-this/162715425188?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D46150%26meid%3Db831d3d8bdb347a9a615e633d13eecb3%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162715422468&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 Same seller, same ploy, similar crap!

at 20 grams its a fake .chinese knock-off.

Good luck. It might be worth you checking out the Finds liaison Officer for that area from the PAS website, they will have access to all previous records. https://finds.org.uk/contacts

The problem is going to be finding someone close enough. I'm in Manchester, John is in the north-east. West of Scotland can go a long way west in terms of time to get there. I'm not sure if there are any Scottish dealers on here.

Must be something about Florins of that era. I also have a 1900 which I repatriated from a New Zealand coin dealer's website a few years ago. Very similar in toning to yours! Sorry for the thread hijack Mick, look forward to seeing your incoming 1937s in due course