TICKET CENTRAL

[will1976]

Coin envelope of O.P. Eklund

Whilst this is for a token I know he wrote a number of books on coins so thought it may be of interest 

[The Bee]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to. I have been occasionally finding damaged tickets but hadn't realised that they might be useful in tracing which collections / auctions coins have been in. 

Sadly in the absence of tickets I think all I have which are remotely related are: a "modern" sealed Spink envelope (probably contains a penny); a Baldwin's envelope with a holed "to Hanover" token; and a I what might be a pre decimal envelope with an 187 Farthing in it.

If I find any tickets that have a number / surname on I will share them

[copper123]

3 hours ago, The Bee said:

Apologies if this is the wrong place to. I have been occasionally finding damaged tickets but hadn't realised that they might be useful in tracing which collections / auctions coins have been in. 

Sadly in the absence of tickets I think all I have which are remotely related are: a "modern" sealed Spink envelope (probably contains a penny); a Baldwin's envelope with a holed "to Hanover" token; and a I what might be a pre decimal envelope with an 187 Farthing in it.

If I find any tickets that have a number / surname on I will share them

That 1875 no H farthing is probably only worth about £8 -£12 depending on the variety a really poor return on cash over probably the last 55 years

[Sword]

5 hours ago, The Bee said:

Apologies if this is the wrong place to. I have been occasionally finding damaged tickets but hadn't realised that they might be useful in tracing which collections / auctions coins have been in. 

Sadly in the absence of tickets I think all I have which are remotely related are: a "modern" sealed Spink envelope (probably contains a penny); a Baldwin's envelope with a holed "to Hanover" token; and a I what might be a pre decimal envelope with an 187 Farthing in it.

If I find any tickets that have a number / surname on I will share them

Are you tempted to find out what's in the sealed envelope? But an envelope with mystery content could be a lot more interesting if it turns out to be a low grade penny inside. On reflection, I would probably leave it alone myself to maintain the suspense. 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Sword

[TomGoodheart]

20 hours ago, The Bee said:

If I find any tickets that have a number / surname on I will share them

 

Bear in mind that the handwriting can help identify a ticket, which can still be useful. Either to link a number of coins to a common owner, or if some provenance is known back to an earlier collection ..

[The Bee]

Hi 

Wondered if this handwriting was known at all ? First ticket found in the collection I'm working through - a George II Farthing 

 

[Coinery]

I’ve been through the BNJ list and can’t seem to fully ID this ticket? I think the stand-out details are capitals throughout, and the loop of the R generally reaching the bottom of the upright and then heading off horizontally?

Any ideas what the reverse info pertains to?

Not your hand in nib, rather than biro, is it @Rob?

[Rob]

William Longman. Collected tokens and these sold at Glendining 12/3/1958. Tickets used were Baldwin's stock tickets with the source of the coin on the bottom line and the date of acquisition in pencil on the rear.

[Rob]

Harvey Schulman envelope. A Manchester dealer in the latter half of the 20th century. 

[Coinery]

I can’t find anything for Abbott and Clonterbrook in the ticket document, do we have dates for their collection dispersals and possibly birth/deaths?

[Rob]

2 hours ago, Coinery said:

I can’t find anything for Abbott and Clonterbrook in the ticket document, do we have dates for their collection dispersals and possibly birth/deaths?

What coins are you looking for? Abbott was probably George Abbott, Glens 10/10/1951 as a Mrs A M Abbott had just a single lot in Sotheby's sale 23/7/1945. All the other Abbotts are in the 19th century. Clonterbrook was the Lockett family trust, with the sale being 7/6/1974.

[Coinery]

Thanks, Rob! I have an Elizabeth 1562/1 threepence that has a Lockett ticket with it - on the back it says in his hand ex Abbott ‘Collection’ (so probably George, then?) and I was wondering about the timeline of that collection?

[Rob]

In the 1951 Abbott sale it was mostly ancients with some British gold and a handful of silver. The coins were noted on the catalogue as being consigned by a family member, but I don't know the relationship. He was Australian, so it's more likely that his English silver was the Abbott 'Australian' collection acquired by Spink in 1951 according to the appendix in Manville and Robertson. But that raises the issue of Lockett dying in 1950, which is obviously earlier than 51. Doing a bit of digging, it appears that he was born in 1867 and died in Sydney on 7/11/1942, so it appears that Lockett was offered coins from the collection after his death and prior to the sale to Spink in 1951.

FWIW, the coin in question was the last coin in lot 163 (6) of Clonterbrook and one of 17 in Lockett II lot 2023, but no previous ownerships noted of any in the lot. That isn't very helpful I'm afraid. 

[Coinery]

44 minutes ago, Rob said:

In the 1951 Abbott sale it was mostly ancients with some British gold and a handful of silver. The coins were noted on the catalogue as being consigned by a family member, but I don't know the relationship. He was Australian, so it's more likely that his English silver was the Abbott 'Australian' collection acquired by Spink in 1951 according to the appendix in Manville and Robertson. But that raises the issue of Lockett dying in 1950, which is obviously earlier than 51. Doing a bit of digging, it appears that he was born in 1867 and died in Sydney on 7/11/1942, so it appears that Lockett was offered coins from the collection after his death and prior to the sale to Spink in 1951.

FWIW, the coin in question was the last coin in lot 163 (6) of Clonterbrook and one of 17 in Lockett II lot 2023, but no previous ownerships noted of any in the lot. That isn't very helpful I'm afraid. 

No this is very helpful, thank you for all your time, really appreciated. So, Lockett and Abbott both were Australians, and my coin owned by a Victorian collector, that feels good, and another detail for the record.

Thank again, Rob!

Edited December 30, 2024 by Coinery

[jasonsewell]

Did scout through tickets people had already posted. Any ideas with this ticket?

 

Edited January 4 by jasonsewell

[copper123]

On 11/30/2024 at 4:22 PM, Rob said:

Harvey Schulman envelope. A Manchester dealer in the latter half of the 20th century. 

I remember going round to his house to view his coins , prob about 1978

[TomGoodheart]

8 hours ago, jasonsewell said:

Did scout through tickets people had already posted. Any ideas with this ticket?

 

Anything on the other side Jason? I have this photo in my records, which someone suggested was a Lockett ticket (no doubt on the basis of the RCL number to the reverse) but I have my doubts about the writing. More likely it was bought from RCL's collection.   However I'd say there's a decent chance it IS the same hand as your ticket .. if that helps?


. @Rob Any ideas? 
Or Gary Oddie is quite good at these, but he's not here but can be found on FB
 

[jasonsewell]

HI Tom,

Nothing on rev.

Thanks for your reply. Was looking for prov after Montagu but with Newarks is seemly hard being sold in "Lots" in old catalogues.. its from the Waley collection recently So now guessing it may actually be his ticket 😅 guessing the cost was 42 shilling?

[Coinery]

13 hours ago, TomGoodheart said:

Anything on the other side Jason? I have this photo in my records, which someone suggested was a Lockett ticket (no doubt on the basis of the RCL number to the reverse) but I have my doubts about the writing. More likely it was bought from RCL's collection.   However I'd say there's a decent chance it IS the same hand as your ticket .. if that helps?


. @Rob Any ideas? 
Or Gary Oddie is quite good at these, but he's not here but can be found on FB
 

Yes, I agree that yours example is not Lockett, his hand is very different…a convenient example of Lockett’s hand in my Elizabeth ticket at the start of this page.

I do however agree your ticket is the same hand as the OP ticket, the top loop on a couple letters and the 164- of the date an absolute double.

[Rob]

If it is ex Montagu III (1896) then it is lot 640, which was a lot of 2 shillings, with one uniface (possibly rubbed down, though could be genuinely uniface). Sold for £4/10/- but I don't have the buyer. The only other possible ex Montagu is part 5 lot 422, described as 1645 usual type (no final E?), another on a large flan and a third dated 1646 and gilt. Described as well preserved and cost £1/15/-. Bought by Weight, the dealer. 

The price of 42/- is close to half the cost of lot 640, so suggests the person who bought it at the sale.

Thinking a bit laterally, RCCB's sale in 1921 had a lot of 4 Newarks including 1645 NEWARKE shilling struck on a large flan showing the original granulated marks on the silver, another with plain reverse (cf. Montagu III lot 640) and a pair of 9ds. None illustrated and no provenances given, but strangely coincidental that he should have a plain reverse. Looking in Eaglen, the N is very similar to those in CB16-3 and C17-1, both in RCCB's hand.

It's a bit tenuous, but sufficient to pursue.

[TomGoodheart]

7 hours ago, jasonsewell said:

HI Tom,

Nothing on rev.

Thanks for your reply. Was looking for prov after Montagu but with Newarks is seemly hard being sold in "Lots" in old catalogues.. its from the Waley collection recently So now guessing it may actually be his ticket 😅 guessing the cost was 42 shilling?

Waley would explain the W number in red. Interesting the picture I have doesn't have one. Waley was 1893-1987, so looks like he just added his reference to the previous owner's ticket ..

[jasonsewell]

On 1/5/2025 at 12:28 PM, Rob said:

If it is ex Montagu III (1896) then it is lot 640, which was a lot of 2 shillings, with one uniface (possibly rubbed down, though could be genuinely uniface). Sold for £4/10/- but I don't have the buyer. The only other possible ex Montagu is part 5 lot 422, described as 1645 usual type (no final E?), another on a large flan and a third dated 1646 and gilt. Described as well preserved and cost £1/15/-. Bought by Weight, the dealer. 

The price of 42/- is close to half the cost of lot 640, so suggests the person who bought it at the sale.

Thinking a bit laterally, RCCB's sale in 1921 had a lot of 4 Newarks including 1645 NEWARKE shilling struck on a large flan showing the original granulated marks on the silver, another with plain reverse (cf. Montagu III lot 640) and a pair of 9ds. None illustrated and no provenances given, but strangely coincidental that he should have a plain reverse. Looking in Eaglen, the N is very similar to those in CB16-3 and C17-1, both in RCCB's hand.

It's a bit tenuous, but sufficient to pursue.

I did see that Carlyon-Britton had the uniface in his sale.. also read that Lincoln bought for CB in the montagu sale although probably many others..  Newarks seem to be hard to trace provenance on 😪 after looking through 100s of catalogues on Archive 🙄 ill check out some tickets in his hand to compare.. 

[jasonsewell]

18 hours ago, TomGoodheart said:

Waley would explain the W number in red. Interesting the picture I have doesn't have one. Waley was 1893-1987, so looks like he just added his reference to the previous owner's ticket ..

Yeah this is kind of the conclusion I'd come too. Thanks Tom.

[TomGoodheart]

Just wondering if anyone is continuing Gary Oddie's 'Contributors to British Numismatics' section on the BNS website?
Particularly the Coin Tickets listing.  The links to send photos are still there, but I don't know if they go anywhere.  @Rob?

[Rob]

I presume they went straight to Gary. No idea if anyone is continuing the project. He died too soon. Always good for a chat.