More Pennies

[jacinbox 36]

The following things are different from the normal type

i) The hair on Britannia's neck short

ii) The last strand of hair coming from Brit's head separates from the rest and is straighter

iii) There are no rocks or at times a single small rock

These are the major clinchers

Edited June 18, 2015 by jacinbox

[jelida 1,197]

I tend to look at the back of the helmet which is concave on earlier reverses but very slightly convex on the ja, the body of the helmet below the plume is also more bulbous. Best compared side by side.

Jerry

[jelida 1,197]

All small date 1875 are ja, so quite easy to find an example to compare with a small date 1874.

Jerry

[Rob 3,002]

Thanks chaps. My Gouby penny book is by appointment to Queen Victoria - 1st ed. (1986). Interesting point though, is that what you now call ja is in fact illustrated opposite reverse j to demonstrate the bulky drapery attributed to die fill. The convex/concave helmet and the straight/wavy hair are both blindingly obvious when blown up.

[jacinbox 36]

Give us a clue. What's special about it?

This one is for you Rob!!! These are the features I use. The sure shot for me is the hair on her neck

[Rob 3,002]

Ta. I think the back of the helmet is the most obvious. It just wasn't called ja in 1986.

[jacinbox 36]

Rob, The ja is an extension of j. The features that you have in your pic of the old Gouby book are common to both to rev j and ja.

Ja came into existence due to die wear. The die wear on 1874 was progressive and the 3 pennies that I have seen have one common feature the hair on the back of the neck (which is shorter on ja). The other features are still emerging on most of the 1874 ja examples. However the die wear was perhaps complete by 1874 because the revs of 1875 onwards are always ja.

Initially Gouby just had j which you show in your pic however he noticed that though 1875 and 77 narrow dates had what he thought was j he noticed that most of the 1874 narrow dates differed from the narrow dates of 1875 and 1877. So he regrouped these reverses (of 1875/77) as ja and identified the 1874 narrow date pennies which had a different reverse as the 1875/77 as j. The ja version of 1874 is rare and that is what Jerry has posted. .

[Coinery 926]

This is another classic example of something I spoke about ages ago! And that is looking at field shapes!

If we try to see small differences in helmet and plume shapes, our brain gets confused, but IF we look at the shape of the little field enclosed in that region, it's altogether a different animal! Using the shape of the field is often far more decisive, I don't know why this hasn't been done before?

[Rob 3,002]

Oh, ok. I got it the wrong way round. I thought the one you highlighted was the ja.

[Coinery 926]

quickly done, but you get the idea! I reckon a lot of the varieties could be identified so much easier by field identification. This is really rushed from low res images, but I think it's got some good potential in a book, a new way of simplifying things! Always happy to do any serious design work for a good cause!

[Peter 615]

I love the Midland.Great stuff.

You really can't beat it.

Before it was at the Meridian Hotel and now Motor bike museum.

I've never had a bad day.

[jelida 1,197]

I dont think it is as straightforward as die wear, other than necessitsting die repair/modification of the master. Gouby seems quite clear that this is a different reverse to Gouby "j" , and the alterations to the shape of the back of the helmet at the very least could not occur through wear alone. The difference in the shape of the back of the helmet is well illustrated in Gouby 2009, and pretty conclusive. However I concur with his view that die wear may account for some of the more minor variability seen with this die (as, of course, other dies).

Jerry

[PWA 1967 1,841]

I was pleased to find this for £35 at the recent Midland Coin Fair, it appears to be a Freeman 72 with the Gouby ja reverse, and it fills a gap within my budget. Gouby values it more than the standard F72, but as a newly described variety appears hesitant in ascribing a rarity: in the opinion of the penny experts on this forum, what level of Freeman rarity would be likely? Is it still scarcer than the norm? As you can see from the scans, it is probably GVF or therabouts.

Jerry

I hope your eye for the women is as good as it is for pennies.

With the coins you have found at the midland this year your going to have to start turning up in a disguise soon.

Hat off to you with another good find.

[Bernie 188]

Yes, I have the one that was from the split set. I believe that the other penny remains in a complete set somewhere in mainland Europe. Other coins in proof set are dated 1924. The Freeman catalogue dies of these pennies are precisely obverse 3 with reverse C. The two original sets were said to have come from South Africa, probably sold by the South African government (or mint, if they have one). The coins sets were disposed of in the UK by Spink & Son.

[VickySilver 775]

Yes, that is what I thought. Might you be good enough to share a picture? The Pretoria Mint had a good number of coins that I just can not figure out how came into their possession. Many were let go for a song, possibly in a bulk purchase somewhere around 1990 or so with majority government rule. These were bits struck by the main Royal Mint branch but [to me] inexplicably found their way all the way to South Africa; many unknown from any other source. Why on Earth would the RM do such a thing.

I wonder how much such a coin, the penny, go for at auction these days?

[Bernie 188]

I believe that the Royal Mint produced these sets to show the South African government the quality of coins that the UK can produce. Probably for gaining contracts for striking SA coinage.

[RLC35 288]

I believe that the Royal Mint produced these sets to show the South African government the quality of coins that the UK can produce. Probably for gaining contracts for striking SA coinage.

Bernie, Is that coin yours, or just a stock photo? Beautiful example! :-)

[VickySilver 775]

Yes, but then they had all the gold pattern proof 3ds and 6ds, evidently at least one of the gold florin 1922 patterns, and then all the matte proof sets (1927, 1937, 1950, 1951 and 1953), examples of the nickel pattern 3ds and shillings of both dates, and many more. That is puzzling to me.

Also, I think that Dolphin Coins had something to do with the dispersion of these and not sure if others know more.

Bernie, very nice coin there!

Edited June 20, 2015 by VickySilver

[Bernie 188]

That is brilliant information, all new to me. Thank you for sharing your knowledge ! It really does pay to watch this forum.

[Coinery 926]

I'm always staggered at the wealth of info. on here!

Another VS special!

[jacinbox 36]

I bump into here at least once a day

[VickySilver 775]

Thanks, then. I only wish I knew more as I believe there were also quite a few colonial patterns and proofs, but as my interests were not there did not follow them. Another juicy bit is that I recall on offer as one lot for 16+k quid:

All of the matte proof sets listed with two of the smaller denomination gold patterns mentioned, the florin not. I'm not sure either if they had a gold pattern half crown.

[jacinbox 36]

One more from Mr Jackson

[jacinbox 36]

Not something one would call a rarity but a nice grade coin

[jacinbox 36]

I have come across what looks like a 1862 half penny with the penny's 6 and 2 or at least it looks very weird to me

The half penny 6 is generally leaning towards the right and the 2 is generally leaning to the left. In this half penny that I have found the 6 and 2 are more upright like the ones you would find on a 1862 penny and the 8, 6 and 2 are very slightly larger.

Has anyone come across something similar please? I am not inclined to believe it's a new variety or something but I just felt it was abnormal considering there is a penny version with half penny numerals.