CGS Grading again

[Coinery]

Do you know, what I find especially interesting about the pro-slabbers, and a few others come to mind, is the length to which they go to to justify and defend it as a practice! There never seems to be an 'each to their own' approach from the pro lobby, more a full-on 'thou shalt not go raw' and 'feel the fear', you need an expert here approach!

You seem like an articulate and intelligent man, Marvin, so I'm hoping you can read this without feeling offended but, in sixty years of collecting, I would like to think I'd come to know the subject well enough to consider myself an expert?

Some people need doctors to tell them they have a cold, whilst others come to know what a cold is and get it sorted, hey ho!

[azda]

I've said it before, but who Exactly is saying "slab a coin amd get top $" Well of course it's the TPGs because it's in their interest to get people to salb coins. It's American marketing at it's best and the sheep will naturally do as they're told and follow the masses. In heritage their start prices for British coins are generally at Spink book price for said grade, so of course it's going to achieve more ESPECIALLY if you have no option to start bidding at a lower price amd see where it goes.

I buy a coin on eye appeal and it's price, not on what a slab grade tells me, mamy times we have seen American TPGs slab a coin at a grade that would never achieve the same grade in the UK by the more astute buyers, countless times i've seen american slabs in English auctions that never achieve the price because of the grade and same goes for the number on the slab, we work a little more differently Marvin and not sucked into the American hype and marketing

Jaggy bought an unslabbed coin in a heritage auction and Sold it a month later and made $1000? On it, i'm sure that was a raw coin which in turn makes a bit of a mockery of "slab a coin" to achieve more, it's down to buyers on the day and how much they want a coin

Edited November 7, 2014 by azda

[Peckris]

Protection from environmental damage is also debatable! We've had numerous discussion about locking away acidic fingerprint et al. on many occasions. You have to remember that encapsulation is still in its infancy...imagine all those poor people who, twenty years from now, are looking into their 'scratched cases' at etched prints and other ailments!

I add scratched cases to make a point, that if you can keep the windows to your tombs all bright and clear, then I argue you can also keep and store a raw coin without damaging it!

Exactly. If you have a decent cabinet and don't live right by the sea, neither environmental or "mechanical" (?) damage should be a worry.

So you've got your Una and the Lion safely ensconced in your cabinet, and each time you pull out the drawer, perhaps it moves a bit over the wooden or lined surface of the drawer, thereby picking up cabinet friction; or you take it out to admire it occasionally, and you've done it a hundred times with no problems, but just once, you accidentally drop it on your tiled floor. Or your wife thinks it looks a little dusty sitting in that cabinet and cleans it up a bit with a furniture polishing cloth; or, or or.... Then you go to sell it only to see in the catalog description a remark about this or that "rim ding" or "cleaning" or "hairlines" or... How many times have I seen those words in British auction catalogs??? So, sure, if you have a "decent?" cabinet, you don't have to worry.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. The implication is that owners of coin cabinets don't take the necessary care when handling and storing their coins. And as for 'auction description' and 'market value', there are more of us who simply enjoy our coins and like to take them out (carefully) and look at them (carefully) without having in the back of our mind some constant pecuniary or mercenary consideration.

As for the (implied) thesis that collectors who store coins in cabinets MUST damage them once in a blue moon ... if that was true there would be no UNC coins with a date earlier than the 1980s. Collectors have been successfully storing their coins for hundreds if not thousands of years, while slabs have a lifespan of no more than 30 years, which is a pinprick in the lifetime of a coin. You ascribe too much delicacy to coins.

I accept your point about TPGs being more of an 'insurance policy' than merely the guarantee of an established and honest dealer, but I'd prefer it if I could get my coin authenticated and photographed by a TPG (who never make mistakes, right?) without the concomitant entombing of said coin.

[Mynki]

Thanks for all the feedback. As a relative newbie it's very intersting to read the thoughts and opinions of very experienced collectors on both sides of the fence.

Despite being in the UK I have interests in the US and spend several weeks of the year there, so I can to some extent appreciate the differences in opinion. Particularly in relation to marketing! I can see why many in the UK won't be convinced by the 'hype' though, and while there is obviously some valid reasons to slab, equally there are others not to. The situation is quite easy to compare to sport hunting. A typical UK hunter hunting in Africa is more likely to just be happy with an animal taken during a hunt. An American is far more likely to want to have it measured as a trophy with a recognised measuring service, comparable to a TGG etc. Whilst in recent times measureres of trophies in the US have created an industry out of trophy hunters. Sometines reducing the size of horn or antler required to meet a specific grade etc. It's quite obvious to me that the US TPG business model shares many similarities along these lines.

Somebody mentioned the strong opinions of those who are pro slabbing. I'm not surprised, from their point of view anything disagreeing with their opinion is a potential threat to their investment, so the seemingly hard line stance taken by some can be appreciated.

[TomGoodheart]

the dialogue has been entertaining and educational for me and allowed me to sharpen my thoughts about the subject.

It has been interesting to hear your thoughts Marvin, so thank you!

When I say 'nice' about a coin I simply mean would it give you enjoyment if it were yours? Now for some, that enjoyment is dependent upon whether the coin in question can be considered rare. For others it's the grade, or where in the population of similar coins it sits. Or who has owned it before ... value or pleasure in owning a coin can be added (or lost) through many diverse factors beyond the simple appearance of the coin itself.

For myself I largely rate on 'eye appeal' although I freely admit this is a bit like admiring paintings. Some instantly draw me and others leave me cold ... but ask me to explain quite why and you'll probably end up an hour later no wiser, beyond realising I can talk a lot while saying little!

Yes, it's fun to find someone else who appreciates a coin I like. But that's because I enjoy talking about coins! But to have some third party (grader, auction house or even dealer) tell me what they think of a coin (grade, condition or rarity) is of little interest to me.

As for collecting, I just like being able to handle my coins. I simply wouldn't enjoy them as much if I couldn't.

I know, I know. I've gone on about it again! But I do like to try to explain my reasoning in case anyone is interested!

[azda]

Each to their own.

[Johnshan]

If you purchased a CGS slabbed coin would you ever remove it from the slab?

Look forward to your replies.

[Rob]

If you purchased a CGS slabbed coin would you ever remove it from the slab?

Look forward to your replies.

Yes

[Nick]

If you purchased a CGS slabbed coin would you ever remove it from the slab?

Look forward to your replies.

Yes, I have. I prefer to store my coins together within capsules in trays so the slabs are no use. Added to which, I don't really care whether CGS thinks it is an 82, an 85 or whatever - I bought the coin because I liked it.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Nick

[Johnshan]

Thanks,

I'm in the same opinion, think ill release my recently purchased coin from its slab.

[Peter]

Don't do it in haste.I don't like slabs and have never slabbed a coin but the slabs I have have remained slabbed.

What is the coin and what grade has been attributed?

Lots of things to consider.

[Coinery]

Yes!

[Coinery]

Peter's right, of course...it would depend on given grade, coin, and whether you mean to keep it or resell it? Tch!

[Johnshan]

Its a William 3rd Shilling CGS EF 60

[Coinery]

Its a William 3rd Shilling CGS EF 60

Oh, yes, sorry, my fault...never got that before!

[sound]

Johnshan,

Peter's advice is good about not being in a hurry.

I don't agree but some are placing a great deal of store on slabbed coins. If you want to resell in the future it could be important.

Despite what some think grading wise sometimes CGS get it wrong. If they were to undergrade a coin that I was convinced deserved a higher grade I would remove it.

On the other hand they sometimes over grade. What would I do then. LOL

Mark

[declanwmagee]

Never valued them over and above the coin within, BUT just got asked today by a customer, for the first time, if I had any more Victorian NGC slabs, other than the one he's just bought.

I didn't of course...it was pure chance that the example of the coin he bought was in an NGC, but he knew what he was looking for, and he wasn't in America, he was in this country. Might as well have been asking if the holder was Lighthouse or the other lot, as far as I was concerned, Worrying development.

[Peter]

Its a William 3rd Shilling CGS EF 60

Leave it slabbed.

My advice only.The slabbing would cost £25+

A CGS 60 on a common coin is worth putting on the back burner.

[Coinery]

Its a William 3rd Shilling CGS EF 60

Oh, yes, sorry, my fault...never got that before!

So sorry, Johnshan, I can't begin to explain what happened there...total crossed wires/miss-post!

Whoops!

[Peter]

Its a William 3rd Shilling CGS EF 60

Oh, yes, sorry, my fault...never got that before!

So sorry, Johnshan, I can't begin to explain what happened there...total crossed wires/miss-post!

Whoops!

Stewie

Put the red wine away.

I think it may be a late night for me watching children in need.

I've already dug deep in Tesco and Mrs Peter has just brought through some Abbot.

Oh dear.

[Coinery]

Its a William 3rd Shilling CGS EF 60

Oh, yes, sorry, my fault...never got that before!

So sorry, Johnshan, I can't begin to explain what happened there...total crossed wires/miss-post!

Whoops!

Stewie

Put the red wine away.

I think it may be a late night for me watching children in need.

I've already dug deep in Tesco and Mrs Peter has just brought through some Abbot.

Oh dear.

[damian1986]

CGS only guarantee the authenticity of milled coins since 1660 (which is fine because there's nothing dafter than a hammered coin in a slab), not sure about the other TPGs.

People have ruined plenty of coins in order to get them to slab a grade higher. All the shiny dipped coins that for some reason the TPGs tend not to penalize... of course a couple of Viking peckmarks and it's the end of the world but a few coats of silver emulsion and no one bats an eyelid.

On the other hand, try performing an analysis of the price performance of raw coins over the past 50 years and it'd be exponentially more difficult and less reliable than coins that have been slabbed. Probably fairly accurate inferences can be made about the popularity and price of silver Eagles since the 70s as zillions have been through the doors at NGC -

But this speaks to a wider problem of population awareness and a consistent grading system. The TPGS only go some way to solving this problem.

[Johnshan]

Thanks for all your advice and opinions. Much appreciated.

John

[Johnshan]

Just to let you know Its staying slabbed!!

Thanks John

[Hugo Z]

The best reason to buy slabbed/graded coins is that you can trust the grading (generally speaking). Put it this way - I trust CGS & PCGS a lot more than I trust the majority of BNTA members.