1870 Penny.

[Michael-Roo]

I have an 1870 wide date penny. This is the Michael Gouby reverse C. Thirteen teeth from the centre of the 1 to the centre of the 0 (His normal width date being 12 teeth. Narrow width date 11 teeth).

How scarce is mine compared with the normal variety?

Also: Spink list 1870 as obv. 6 rev.G. The accompanying notes state obv.6 always displays a prominent flaw on the top stop of the colon after D at the end of the legend.

Mine doesn't seem to have this flaw.

Any thoughts?

[azda]

If you have a Gouby book it will tell you its rarity in there as will Michael Freemans book. For grade i'd say GVF

Edited August 8, 2014 by azda

[Peckris]

If you have a Gouby book it will tell you its rarity in there as will Michael Freemans book. For grade i'd say GVF

Freeman doesn't list a variety, just 6+G. For wear I'd grade it just about EF but there are one or two strange deformities.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Peckris

[azda]

I mentioned rarity peck not Vaiety, Freeman doess list rarity Levels

[Michael-Roo]

Thanks both.

I don't have the books. Hopefully someone reading the thread topic, who does, will be kind enough to look it up for me. I can't find anything on the interweb (apart from M Gouby's date width varieties). I can't find any info for him having had a reverse C (13 teeth) for sale, which led me to believe it might be the rare one.

Any thoughts regarding the absence of die flaw on the colon after D on the obverse?

Peck. I'd rated as near EF too. Ta!

[Varietalis]

Thanks both.

I don't have the books. Hopefully someone reading the thread topic, who does, will be kind enough to look it up for me. I can't find anything on the interweb (apart from M Gouby's date width varieties). I can't find any info for him having had a reverse C (13 teeth) for sale, which led me to believe it might be the rare one.

Any thoughts regarding the absence of die flaw on the colon after D on the obverse?

Peck. I'd rated as near EF too. Ta!

Try an inter-library loan from the British Library to your local library. A tad old school perhaps but you'll be able to get hold of the reference books for sure. Having said that Gouby might be tricky. Wasn't it privately published and sold by Michael from his shop? Still, if it has an ISBN then you should be able to get it.

[Michael-Roo]

Thanks V.

[declanwmagee]

My Gouby Specialised does have an ISBN...

[Peckris]

Freeman doesn't list the variety, only the rarity for the 1870 as a whole: R6 which = 30,000 - 50,000 (i.e. not that rare). You'd have to consult Gouby for the rarity of the variety.

[just.me]

Michael Gouby doesn't give rarity ratings to the date widths. In is newest specialised publication he does however list the number of each date width he had seen or had in stock, which for 1870 was:

11 teeth = 3 reverse a

11 1/2 teeth = 10+ reverse b

12 teeth = 10+ reverse c

13 teeth = 1 reverse e

reverse d was maybe missed out incase there is possibly a 12 1/2 tooth date width?

[Michael-Roo]

Thank you J.

Mine is 13 teeth, as can be clearly seen from the photo I attached.

I"m now a little confused. The only web info I could find for him stated there are three reverses, 13 teeth being Rev.C (A being 11 teeth. B being 12 teeth)

What is Rev.e E? And, indeed, in that case, what is Rev. D?

Either way, at 13 teeth being an example he'd only ever seen one example of, it looks like mine is the rarest variety after all?

[Michael-Roo]

Sorry.

Just seen your mention of a missing Rev.D being a possible 12 1/2 date width. Still makes the A/B/C/D/E thing a bit confusing for me (laughs).

13 deffo the wide date then. Just wondering how rare it might be.

[azda]

As Peck stated above, not many people will delve into a half bead wider etc.

[just.me]

1870 is quite a common date and I wouldn't say any of the date widths would be rare as such, certainly the 11 and 13 are scarcer than the middle widths but the 11 teeth might be rarer than the 13. as said previously, there are few who collect the date width varieties so any premium on prices depending on the date width would be relatively small I would guess. (I am one who does collect the widths). Some may collect the narrowest and widest as the difference is more easily seen in hand.

A quick search on eBay threw up a few wide dated either at 12 1/2 or 13 teeth

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1870-QUEEN-VICTORIA-PENNY-NVF-UK-POST-FREE-/351135216589?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item51c14a33cd

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-1870-Penny-Fine-/390899098188?hash=item5b0366e24c

and 0 of the 11 teeth.

Not really confusing once you get the hang of the reference codes, they are all obverse J and reverse g, which is the only obverse and reverse used on 1870 Pennies, therefore the A gives reference to the only pairing, the a,b,c,d,e, is the reference given to the date widths. so your 13 teeth penny would be 1870 Ae J+g. An 11 teeth width would be 1870 Aa J+g.

[Peckris]

1870 is quite a common date and I wouldn't say any of the date widths would be rare as such, certainly the 11 and 13 are scarcer than the middle widths but the 11 teeth might be rarer than the 13. as said previously, there are few who collect the date width varieties so any premium on prices depending on the date width would be relatively small I would guess. (I am one who does collect the widths). Some may collect the narrowest and widest as the difference is more easily seen in hand.

A quick search on eBay threw up a few wide dated either at 12 1/2 or 13 teeth

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1870-QUEEN-VICTORIA-PENNY-NVF-UK-POST-FREE-/351135216589?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item51c14a33cd

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-1870-Penny-Fine-/390899098188?hash=item5b0366e24c

and 0 of the 11 teeth.

Not really confusing once you get the hang of the reference codes, they are all obverse J and reverse g, which is the only obverse and reverse used on 1870 Pennies, therefore the A gives reference to the only pairing, the a,b,c,d,e, is the reference given to the date widths. so your 13 teeth penny would be 1870 Ae J+g. An 11 teeth width would be 1870 Aa J+g.

I'll have to have a look at my 1870, my interest is piqued by there being rare examples!

I wouldn't agree it is common - I think no bun date after 1863 and before 1874 is an easy date, especially in higher grades. It's commoner than 1868 certainly, but scarcer than 1872, 1873, 1866 I would say. Probably on a par with 1865, perhaps scarcer?

[Danz]

My 1870 (12 teeth) has an interesting over legend on the whole on " ONE PENNY ". I also have the 13 teeth type. Didn't know about these teeth width until I saw this thread.

[Danz]

The O

[Danz]

N

[Danz]

E

[Danz]

The P. The ENN are the same as the letters in ONE.

[Danz]

The Y

[Danz]

The shield seems to have more lines in the cross and it also has a 1 over smaller 1. I have seen the odd recut letter on the legend but not the whole thing. What do you make of it?

[Danz]

My 13 teeth one.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Danz

[davidrj]

looks like a disintegrating die to me

David

Edited August 13, 2014 by davidrj

[Danz]

There are a good few cracks in it but why would the letters be 3 different sizes?