1845 Victoria Crown - Cleaned?

[coinmerchant]

Hello,

Recently acquired this1845 Victoria Crown. Unfortunately I have a horrible

feeling this coin has been cleaned at some time.

I would grateful for any opinions.

Thanks

William

[VickySilver]

Yes, dipped at the least, possible silver cleaner of ? type. I can not make out if there are fine hairlines such as would occur with wiping. Still, I had an 1847 YH crown that I put into an older brown coin envelope (complete with the desired mild sulfured paper) and it has toned rather nicely.

It is rumoured in the States that they wrap the coin in Taco Bell brown napkins +/- putting it on the window sill for somewhat of the same effect, kind of checking and turning it a bit. Not very scientific but same idea...

Edited January 9, 2013 by VickySilver

[Peter]

Shame about the cleaning.The old girl has no edge knocks.

[Debbie]

This has prompted me to ask something I have been meaning to ask and keep forgetting. How much approximately % wise would you expect to deduct from the list price if a coin has been cleaned? I know that it would depend on each coin, but say for instance it is EF, obviously been cleaned but begun to re-tone,would you expect to sell / buy at a lesser price? It's not such an issue for me with engraved coins etc as I expect some to be cleaned, but as a shilling collector I would be interested to hear what other think. - sorry to high jack your thread coin merchant!

[coinmerchant]

Thanks for the comments, and to tell you the truth, I'm a little surprised.

I purchase this coin yesterday off a well know dealer, and according to his

own words has been in the business for thirty five years!

Of course he will take the coin back, and refund, but that's not the point.

The dealer, should at least mention that the coin may have been cleaned in the past.

Just for interest, how much would this coin be worth now, to other collectors, taking into account

the cleaning and graded very fine. I 'm sure I could sell it on eBay for about £150.00 and

get the price, but that would not be right, would it!

Cheers

William

[VickySilver]

Why not, everybody else does? Just post decent pictures and leave it to the buyers. Maybe not such a hot idea to call it mint state...

[Peter]

I would just return it to the dealer.It would be a £125/50 coin uncleaned

[coinmerchant]

Hi Vicky,

Well, I must be a very naive person then. I would expect it on the Bay, but not from

a bone fide dealer. To any budding coin collector, be very carefully, trust no one!

[coinmerchant]

I would just return it to the dealer.It would be a £125/50 coin uncleaned

£130.00 - £200.00 Cleaned on eBay in very fine grade, having taken a look on completed listings.

Plenty of nice shiny coins on there. Could make a nice profit!

But I will be returning the coin.

[Peter]

http://www.rarecoinsandtokens.co.uk/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=770&zenid=127oaq1seu25ihk96l62lg93q6

I know which I prefer.

It is £76

Edited January 9, 2013 by Peter

[Peckris]

This has prompted me to ask something I have been meaning to ask and keep forgetting. How much approximately % wise would you expect to deduct from the list price if a coin has been cleaned? I know that it would depend on each coin, but say for instance it is EF, obviously been cleaned but begun to re-tone,would you expect to sell / buy at a lesser price? It's not such an issue for me with engraved coins etc as I expect some to be cleaned, but as a shilling collector I would be interested to hear what other think. - sorry to high jack your thread coin merchant!

It all depends what you mean by "obviously", and how much it's retoned. It also depends how rare and/or popular the coin is. I would - waves finger in the air - guesstimate a deduction of anywhere between 15% and 50% depending on those other factors.

[azda]

On the other end of the scale though Debbie, people are buying cleaned Coins knowing full well what they are and these are finding their way into collections at prices of uncleaned coins. I'd say it would depend on the coin and if high grade as people would take the gamble on them retoning in time.

1 ebay seller seems to clean/dip all of his silver and deacribes so and he seems to be getting good prices for them.

[declanwmagee]

On the other end of the scale though Debbie, people are buying cleaned Coins knowing full well what they are and these are finding their way into collections at prices of uncleaned coins. I'd say it would depend on the coin and if high grade as people would take the gamble on them retoning in time.

1 ebay seller seems to clean/dip all of his silver and deacribes so and he seems to be getting good prices for them.

7139micahel?

[azda]

I think thats his name Declan

[Debbie]

Thanks for your thoughts Peck and Dave. Perhaps there is an investment opportunity to buy up cleaned coins for any future grandchildren then?!

I would be interested to see any cleaned and nicely re-toned coins that members may have? I have one here, it doesn't look too bad but you can still tell it has been cleaned in hand. Shame its not a 1905!

[azda]

ld agree with the investment Debbie, as long as the coin has been agressively cleaned. Why not also try what myself and Stuart are doing, buying up George VI coins or George V but in UNC only, 20-30 years down the line they should be worth a lot more than you've paid and they are relatively cheap right now other than cleaned/dipped coins. I had one coin that i dipped and came out pretty well, only because it had surface grime.

Here's the before and after pictures

[Debbie]

ld agree with the investment Debbie, as long as the coin has been agressively cleaned.

Did you mean NOT agressively cleaned there Dave?

Great crown which hopefully will re-tone nicely over the years. Do you think that the different % of silver for example pre and post 1920 tone differently? I'm buying unc George v and George v1 for my OWN collection still Dave!

[azda]

Yes i meant NOT agressively cleamed. Also my crown is a halfcrown % of silver, i could'nt answer that question, its a possibility though.

[Peckris]

Thanks for your thoughts Peck and Dave. Perhaps there is an investment opportunity to buy up cleaned coins for any future grandchildren then?!

I would be interested to see any cleaned and nicely re-toned coins that members may have? I have one here, it doesn't look too bad but you can still tell it has been cleaned in hand. Shame its not a 1905!

That's a very nice example Debbie - and 1908 is not an easy date in high grades, not easy at all. It only looks mildly cleaned/polished and should tone back nicely.

[Red Riley]

I seem to recall a similar thread, but for what it's worth in my view an average coin which has been cleaned may lose some 10% of its value, a figure which is reducing all the time. On the other hand, a nicely toned coin (not the awful rainbow types) can attract quite a premium. For some reason the average person often seems to be oblivious to the word 'cleaned' or the phrase 'probably cleaned' both of which I use from time to time.

From a dealer's perspective I wouldn't be put off buying a silver coin which had been cleaned so long as the price was right. Copper/bronze? Forget it!

[Nick]

ld agree with the investment Debbie, as long as the coin has been agressively cleaned.

Did you mean NOT agressively cleaned there Dave?

Great crown which hopefully will re-tone nicely over the years. Do you think that the different % of silver for example pre and post 1920 tone differently? I'm buying unc George v and George v1 for my OWN collection still Dave!

It think that it does. It's certainly true of the early 1920's silver coins (except those that were blanched) when the mint was experimenting with different metal mixes. Many of these exhibit a yellowy tone with light pastel shades of green, red etc. In my experience, pre-1920 silver is more likely to be colourfully toned than post-1920 silver (which generally tones a golden colour), but is that because of the silver content or just because they are older, or for some other reason altogether.

Attached is the most interestingly toned 1920 coin that I have.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Nick

[Colin G.]

Copper/bronze? Forget it!

A good point well made, the impact on copper and bronze is huge, it virtually destroys the value unless it is a scarce coin/variety. I would guess at a MINIMUM 50-75% decrease for bronze silver if retoning evenly, up to a 90% reduction for freshly cleaned/unevenly retoning copper/bronze.

[Coinery]

With cleaned anything, it really depends on the original grade of the coin! A coin in a grade that should be blessed with a high degree of original mint lustre, will be ruined if the cleaning has removed that, no matter how nicely it tones back! Whereas, if the coin is in a grade where the lustre has long since disappeared, but should now be nicely oxidised, you can just about tolerate a past 'non-hairlining' clean, provided it's nicely retoning, or you are happy to nurse it back to tolerance yourself!

I've recently learnt a few things about dipping silver:

1) if you want to learn how to spot dipped coins, dip a selection of junk coins yourself and study the effects! Even the lightest dip can wave a flag at you then!

2) make sure if you are dipping for best effect on lustred coins, that the 'black' you are hoping to remove is sat ON the lustre, and not gobbled through to the silver beneath! Get your loupes out!

3) don't waste your time dipping lower grade coins, except to understand point 1, it never looks right!

4) in my opinion, the only benefit of dipping is for use on atrociously toned coins, where you are feeling happy about patiently waiting for a subsiquent and 'hopefully' eye-pleasing retone, or where you are wanting to remove grime from a full-lustre coin!

5) No, no, no! Caution, caution, caution! Luck, luck, luck!

[Peter]

Rather than dip the whole coin a cotton bud with a drop of dip and a soaked cocktail stick can get you improvements.This is for silver only.

I've tried pure acetone and olive oil and have a few good % bad outcomes.

[Coinery]

I've tried pure acetone and olive oil and have a few good % bad outcomes.

Absolutely agree! The only and best results, using the above method, are on full-lustred bronze! I just don't know 100% whether a beautiful full-lustre will be damaged, long term, by olive oil? But I would certainly love to know from anyone that does!

It's something that worries me, all those nicely stored and oiled bronzes/coppers in 2x2's...are they going to look knackered in 20 year's time?