CROWNS

[coinkat]

I have not attempted to rank the Wreath proofs by date in terms of scarcity- 

I did offer a ranking for the George II Crowns by year on another forum about 4-5 years ago- excluding the 1732 and 1746 proofs.

[coinkat]

I went to look for the forum that I posted my ranking of George II Crowns and could not find it. I am not even sure it still is around. So I will post share my current thoughts:

From the rarest to the most common and I will group the young head and old heads together-

1751, 1735, 1734, 1736, 1750, 1732, 1739, 1741, 1743 leading to what I have experienced as the most available in terms of surviving population the 1746 LIMA.

I suspect some may argue that I have placed the 1732 too far back and that may be right. However, that was the first year of the series and it seems more than we think managed to survive.

[Garrett]

Thanks CoinKat, that is useful information.

cheers Garrett.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Garrett
remove irrelevant info

[coinkat]

I doubt there would be much controversy as the 1751 being the rarest or the the 1746 LIMA being the most available- I suspect others may place the 1750 or 1732 higher in terms of rarity than I have- What is even a greater challenge is estimating the quantity minted. Most of what I have read suggests that that George II Crowns were not even seen often back in the day. The mintage figures for these dates could range dramatically. Unfortunately, it seems all we will ever have for these series is estimates for the mintages and surviving population.

[divemaster]

UIN	0037481
Coin Type	CR.G6.1951.09
Origin	Great Britain
Description	Crown George VI 1951
Variety	Plain Edge, struck in error on unedged blank
Standard References	Davies 2020E
Provenance
Grade	CGS 93
Population Level	1 out of 1 Finest Known

[VickySilver]

Is that the one just sold? Looks proof, is it?

[divemaster]

Its not proof and yes its a recent purchase from LCA. The condition is stunning! and I believe there are not very many of them at all.

 

[VickySilver]

Yours? I just was not willing to part with that amount of money for such, though a nice piece.

[pokal02]

I'd broadly agree with the George II rankings.  The '51 isn't as rare as sometimes suggested but is still the hardest to find.  I'd probably have that exact order although can't really split '34 and '35 nor '41 and '43. 

How about George Ist?The 1716 is the easiest - in fact I might go in date order with 1726 the hardest, although again the last 4 are quite hard to split?

 

[coinkat]

Unfortunately, I have not have enough experience with George I Crowns to rank them with a high degree of confidence. I do agree with your thoughts- especially as to the 1726 being the hardest. I suppose if we wanted to make this even more of a challenge, we could rank by condition rarity. That is where the real fun and disagreements will likely surface.

 

[pokal02]

Yes, it'S interesting to see how crowns stopped circulating so much in the 18th cent in that William & Mary/William III crowns are more common in in Fair/VG/NF than Fine & better

George I & II's are harder to find below F than above it (other than possibly 1716)

and Annes are probably somewhere in between (the Edinburgh ones are usually quite worn but the others are about as common in F & better as below F). 

[coinkat]

The series of Crowns from the reign of William III may contain one of the most underrated Crowns- The 1697- 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, coinkat said:

The series of Crowns from the reign of William III may contain one of the most underrated Crowns- The 1697- 

Spink doesn't think so. F-2750, VF-9500, EF 47500.

Significantly, even the Parsons piece, lot 568 and graded good with holes in the flan merited a picture ahead of many other pieces that one might consider worthy of illustration. It is a seriously rare thing. ESC rated it R3, which has to be an underestimation of rarity. Alan Barr's coin was listed at £1750 in Fine - VF, which with hindsight was an absolute bargain for someone.

[coinkat]

Rob- In all fairness, in the 2012 Spink the 1697 Crown was listed at 17,500 pounds in EF. Even at 47,500 pounds in EF that is just not reflective of its rarity. If it were a US coin, it would easily be $300,000-$350,000, if not more which is significantly more than Spink's current valuation which has escalated 30,000 in roughly four years. There is little interest in promoting British rarities and this is one of the better examples that comes to mind. And yes, there are others in all denominations.

[coinkat]

There was an EF40 graded by PCGS that was featured in a Stacks-Bowers auction about 3-4 years ago- I believe it sold in the $6,000 range. I was able to see the coin before the auction- In hindsight it was not a great numismatic moment for me by choosing to pass 

[pokal02]

1697's seem to be overgraded more than most coins (human nature when a GF Is theoretically worth a few thousand more than an NF?- I need an upgrade and would settle for a 'proper' F, but all those I've seen recently graded F, GF and even VF (yes Corbetts Auctions, I'm talking about you) are only NF or AF.   It's close as to whether that or 1665 is the most difficult (after 1674) but the most under-rated is probably 1669.  I've probably seen fewer of those than 1697's in the past 10 years.  

[coinkat]

pokal02:

Just curious... what do you see as the surviving population for the 1697 crown? I ask mainly because I am curious as to the total surviving population verse the surviving population in a relative high grade. I see the 1697 crown as rarity. However, maybe there are more low grade examples that exist that I just don't know about. And maybe there are more than I suspect that survived but in a lower grade. 

 

[pokal02]

I've probably seen or heard about 25 or so in 30 years, so allowing for ones in lifetime collections/museums and ones that have appeared that I've missed  say between 60-100?  It's a pure guess though.   I used to think 1665 was even rarer, seeing/hearing about only three between 1980 (when I started collecting crowns) and 2004 but then quite a few more have turned up since, although all in low grades.  Again I now know of 20 or so specimens so guess there are perhaps between 50-80 existing,  ,

[coinkat]

I would have suggested a lower number- likely under 40 and under 5 or 6 in EF or higher.

Since you mentioned the 1665 Crown, what do you think the surviving population is for the 1666 elephant?

[pokal02]

I'd definitely agree with under 5 in EF.  The Van Roekel coin was stated to be the only one in EF at the time.   Outside museums, I'd be surprised if there were five in a 'proper' VF.  and would say the same about 1665. .

 

.I base my overall guess on the likelihood that I have seen/heard about less than 50% of the actual specimens.  As well as those in museums  and life time collections, there will be others e.g. those sold on websites I don't look at (I only discovered Heritage 2 years ago) and any sold by dealers with no web presence (e.g. Graeme Monk, Paul Davies of Birmingham), and auctions I don't know about/subscribe to.

1666 elephant - again a total guess but maybe 150- 200?  I'd say about three of them turn up for every 1665 or 1697 that does.  My impression is that their average grade is a little better than most Crowns of the 1660's - perhaps some were set aside/collected even back then?     . 

[coinkat]

The 1666 Elephant is more available - I would estimate somewhere in the low 100s. 

[pokal02]

There is a 1697 crown coming up at Heritage (11 Aug) stated to be 'VF35'.  (usually stated to be an English Fine but I'd say this one is at least GF).  I think it's the second best I've seen after the van Roekel specimen.  I suspect it will stay States-side given the recent depreciation of the pound against the dollar (and that the live bidding seems to be about 2:30 am UK time). 

[coinkat]

It sold for over $10,500 with the buyer's premium. And no, I was not the lucky winner despite my best reasonable efforts

[Sword]

I came across this in the minutes of a CGS meeting in June 2015. If this information is accurate, then VIP proof Wreath crowns are not as rare as one might think.

"The point was made that pricing by CGS for Proof Crowns of George V (the ‘Wreath Crowns’) where only ten may have been made did not have a significant difference to their scarcer currency counterparts (where the latter may have been produced in the thousands).
Erratum: Post the meeting the following information was kindly provided by Stewart Gilbert:

I had a serious conversation about a year ago with a director of a leading retail and auction company, who detected that one of my Wreath Crowns may be a proof, and it was indeed verified and graded by PCGS as a VIP Proof. So I asked the director if he had any idea how many of these Wreath VIP Proofs were minted? His professional opinion, based on his wealth of knowledge, experience and contacts at the Mint was that between 50 and 100 coins each year would have been minted for the various “V.I.P. s”. If the Mint did record the number minted at the time, then the information should be available, but I guess may be hidden away somewhere in their library? Or maybe lost during their move from London to Cardiff? So, only as a suggestion, maybe you could change 10 to between 50 and 100."

 

[divemaster]

Interesting point, I was actually at that CGS meeting when this was discussed and prior to that other people have noted that there appears to be more 1932 and 1934 proofs surfacing than the other dates. Stewart is an exceptionally clued up and clever with crowns, proofs and variants, I just can't help thinking it's not as much as 100 proofs but more like up to 50 on those two dates. How one would find out the actual mintage figures (not estimates) l don't know. There will be many responses to this saying no they are early strikes and so on but to anyone who takes this seriously you can see the difference immediately.