1854 "Inverted A" Half Penny

[markn]

Hello from Australia. I found the coin below at a coin show this weekend and it is not noted in Spink (the dealer I got it from didn't notice it either). Can you tell me if it is a known variety? Any idea of the scarcity?

Edited October 16, 2011 by markn

[azda]

Hello from Australia. I found the coin below at a coin show this weekend and it is not noted in Spink (the dealer I got it from didn't notice it either). Can you tell me if it is a known variety? Any idea of the scarcity?

Hi Mark, definately not a known variety, but that looks definately like an A to me, the coin itself is very nice. Trouble being there is obviously no price guide for something like this, so best hold onto it until hopefully a few others turn up. I'm off to check mine now

[Colin G.]

Very nice, and well spotted...the problem is that Spinks does not capture all varieties and even a few major ones like this do not make it in until they become "known"

Half penny variety collectors will be the best people to advise on whether it is a variety that has been seen before. Rob of RP coins may be a good place to start. I have no doubt he will see the post anyway soon

[RLC35]

Hello from Australia. I found the coin below at a coin show this weekend and it is not noted in Spink (the dealer I got it from didn't notice it either). Can you tell me if it is a known variety? Any idea of the scarcity?

Hi Mark,

Nice coin! I have sent you a PM regarding it.

[Peckris]

Hello from Australia. I found the coin below at a coin show this weekend and it is not noted in Spink (the dealer I got it from didn't notice it either). Can you tell me if it is a known variety? Any idea of the scarcity?

Variety or not (I couldn't care less to be honest - there are so many in that series!) - it is one hell of a beaut of a coin. Nice find mate.

[Colin G.]

Hello from Australia. I found the coin below at a coin show this weekend and it is not noted in Spink (the dealer I got it from didn't notice it either). Can you tell me if it is a known variety? Any idea of the scarcity?

Variety or not (I couldn't care less to be honest - there are so many in that series!) - it is one hell of a beaut of a coin. Nice find mate.

Oh but that is a clear error unlike many of the other varieties in the series....well worth a mention

[markn]

Thanks for the replies on this guys, much appreciated! I found this auction result (from someone here in Australia too):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREAT-BRITAIN-1854-HALFPENNY-EF-BETTER-VARIETY-/150639843588?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item2312d59904#ht_579wt_1396

[Rob]

John (Chingford) has one too.

[Chingford]

John (Chingford) has one too.

I have seen 8 since the first was identified two years ago, recently two have sold on Ebay as V over A, the Australian Ebay one shown (£235) and one a couple of weeks previously

(£105),they were both in similar condition to your own, both of the auction winners knew the variety, and are forum members, I was an underbidder on both!

Peckris is right when he says the Copper series is littered with similar overstrikes, deliberate as with dates and repairs for longivity of the die, but errors in spelling and setting

out of the legends are less common, usually it is the first/last letters of the text, as with V/A, the first of VICTORIA, and the last of GRATIA, but there are a couple where the letters

are side by side in the legend and have inadvertently been swapped.

[azda]

John (Chingford) has one too.

I have seen 8 since the first was identified two years ago, recently two have sold on Ebay as V over A, the Australian Ebay one shown (£235) and one a couple of weeks previously

(£105),they were both in similar condition to your own, both of the auction winners knew the variety, and are forum members, I was an underbidder on both!

Peckris is right when he says the Copper series is littered with similar overstrikes, deliberate as with dates and repairs for longivity of the die, but errors in spelling and setting

out of the legends are less common, usually it is the first/last letters of the text, as with V/A, the first of VICTORIA, and the last of GRATIA, but there are a couple where the letters

are side by side in the legend and have inadvertently been swapped.

Chingford, i heard Michael Gouby was the underbidder on the Ozzy coin, so i'm assuming you work alongside him in some capacity?

[Chingford]

[azda]

Chingford, i heard Michael Gouby was the underbidder on the Ozzy coin, so i'm assuming you work alongside him in some capacity?

[Chingford]

[markn]

For what it's worth I sent this coin to PCGS in the USA for authentication and to make sure it wasn't some sort of alteration or fabrication. They've sent it back with a grade of MS63RB, probably restricted by the scratch on HM's face. I'm sitting on it for now, completely unsure what to do with it.

[Rob]

For what it's worth I sent this coin to PCGS in the USA for authentication and to make sure it wasn't some sort of alteration or fabrication. They've sent it back with a grade of MS63RB, probably restricted by the scratch on HM's face. I'm sitting on it for now, completely unsure what to do with it.

If you collect halfpennies, then surely you keep it?

I'm not sure why you would require authentication though. Looking at it with a glass would say whether it had been altered, and PCGS haven't a clue half the time about varieties. I sold a 1799 copper proof to one of the PCGS forum members. When slabbed it came back as an MS62 currency strike despite having no surface marks or wear and Peck devoting a full page in his book to the type which should have made an id straightforward. They clearly can't learn from the standard reference, so your unrecorded variety is on a hiding to nothing if you want an accurate assessment that you can have confidence in.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Rob

[Chingford]

For what it's worth I sent this coin to PCGS in the USA for authentication and to make sure it wasn't some sort of alteration or fabrication. They've sent it back with a grade of MS63RB, probably restricted by the scratch on HM's face. I'm sitting on it for now, completely unsure what to do with it.

Have they recorded the coin as A over V or just simply recorded the date/type

[markn]

I'm not sure why you would require authentication though. Looking at it with a glass would say whether it had been altered, and PCGS haven't a clue half the time about varieties. I sold a 1799 copper proof to one of the PCGS forum members. When slabbed it came back as an MS62 currency strike despite having no surface marks or wear and Peck devoting a full page in his book to the type which should have made an id straightforward. They clearly can't learn from the standard reference, so your unrecorded variety is on a hiding to nothing if you want an accurate assessment that you can have confidence in.

I sent it to them because they would have seen every possible method of either adding, altering, or manipulating mintmarks or other coin elements given the sheer value of some American varieties. I was mostly interested in getting them to validate that it wasn't something man-made as opposed to verifying it as a British variety.

[markn]

For what it's worth I sent this coin to PCGS in the USA for authentication and to make sure it wasn't some sort of alteration or fabrication. They've sent it back with a grade of MS63RB, probably restricted by the scratch on HM's face. I'm sitting on it for now, completely unsure what to do with it.

Have they recorded the coin as A over V or just simply recorded the date/type

I had it slabbed under their error service so they've described it appropriately on the holder.

[markn]

If you collect halfpennies, then surely you keep it?

I'm not sure why you would require authentication though. Looking at it with a glass would say whether it had been altered, and PCGS haven't a clue half the time about varieties. I sold a 1799 copper proof to one of the PCGS forum members. When slabbed it came back as an MS62 currency strike despite having no surface marks or wear and Peck devoting a full page in his book to the type which should have made an id straightforward. They clearly can't learn from the standard reference, so your unrecorded variety is on a hiding to nothing if you want an accurate assessment that you can have confidence in.

No, they don't know everything and it's crazy to expect them to. That being said I know they do listen if you make contact with them and explain your reasoning and supply the documentation to them to support your arguments. I know of quite a few cases where they've changed their thinking about Australian coins based on local literature that has been sent over to them to read.

[Rob]

If you collect halfpennies, then surely you keep it?

I'm not sure why you would require authentication though. Looking at it with a glass would say whether it had been altered, and PCGS haven't a clue half the time about varieties. I sold a 1799 copper proof to one of the PCGS forum members. When slabbed it came back as an MS62 currency strike despite having no surface marks or wear and Peck devoting a full page in his book to the type which should have made an id straightforward. They clearly can't learn from the standard reference, so your unrecorded variety is on a hiding to nothing if you want an accurate assessment that you can have confidence in.

No, they don't know everything and it's crazy to expect them to. That being said I know they do listen if you make contact with them and explain your reasoning and supply the documentation to them to support your arguments. I know of quite a few cases where they've changed their thinking about Australian coins based on local literature that has been sent over to them to read.

Which again raises the question that if they will only do things based on literature which the person submitting the coin has to supply, why are they held in such high esteem and why do people feel the need to get their approval? Whilst we are all aware that many people are prone to overgrading their coins, a significant number are not. The same is true of establishing whether a coin has been altered from the original. The costs involved of getting someone like PCGS or NGC or anyone else for that matter to give it an "official" seal of approval is a clear case of money for old rope. Collectors need to up their act a bit, get a good glass on the coin and do the spadework themselves. There is sufficient evidence of mistakes made by the biggest TPGs both here and in the US to suggest that the model is a triumph of marketing over usefulness.

When it comes to establishing authenticity, documentation of forgeries and copies is freely available both on the net and in physical form and so if someone wants to find out what is in the market they can do so with a modicum of research. The costs involved are a direct result of collectors' laziness. If it costs £20 or $20 to slab a coin and you have 500 coins in the collection, is it really worth spending 10K to establish that the coins are genuine whilst at the same time accepting that some will come back with the wrong attribution which in the case of many US collectors will determine what they will pay for the coin. This is very much a miltary mentality whereby if the Sgt. Major says today is Tuesday, then Tuesday it is. I'm afraid I despair over collectors unwillingness to use their eyes and make their own decisions.

[Peter]

Like many rip offs we face day to day.The louder and more aggressive marketing machines yell the more success they have in putting doubt into peoples minds and the willingness to trust their own judgement.

I will bet you I know more about UK copper coins than any grader working for these companies.

Grading companies are aimed at "ham fisted cowboys" who have been to an extent brainwashed into thinking this is essential.

It is like insurance,an expensive comfort blanket...how far do you insure yourself and day to day items/events?I insure my house & car because I have to...thats it

Don't forget if your water supply should leak between your house and the main its your responsibility....yeah it happens every day doesn't it?Unless you have artic lorries running over your drive rolls of blue plastic pipe are unlikely to leak.Don't dig for Austrailia though without a pair of divining rods.

Next time a shop assistant or company mention the "insurance" word stop....save your money and pop into the bookies...its more fun at least.

[markn]

I agree with your sentiment about collectors educating themselves and being reliant on others for authentication isn't the best idea. However, there is no escaping the fact that a large number of collectors DON'T choose to do this and will happily spend money on essentially worthless coins. Witness a recent example in Australia where a supposed "numismatist" with deep pockets spend over $10,000 on a 'finest known' Australian overdate threepence that wasn't an overdate at all! He chose to not even bother viewing the coin despite being willing to spend $10k on it!!!! I am not sure of the market situation in the UK but down here in Australia at least, the majority of dealers are nothing short of scandalous in terms of their grading and their general numismatic knowledge. Dealers down here have made a lot of money selling to uneducated buyers who are simply buying for investment purposes and who have been (nothing more) than hoodwinked into spending thousands of dollars on cleaned, over-graded rubbish. This problem is only becoming worse and the better grading companies are at least helping to educate collectors down here as to what is a cleaned coin. That is nothing but a good thing as far as I am concerned.

With regards to this coin I was perfectly happy that it was a genuine, uncleaned coin. But if I'd taken to it to any number of dealers down here they would have instantly undergraded it, called it tampered with, or dismissed it as worthless. By submitting it to PCGS I have an instantly more marketable commodity that I have a much better chance of realising the real worth of when I choose to dispose of it. As to the cost of getting it done, it wasn't exorbitant and the high Australian dollar has made it even cheaper.

[Chingford]

I have a boot in each camp here, I whole heartitly agree with Rob, why do I need someone to tell me the coin type/grade, that is an opinion I will form for myself, no matter what the label says, but also agree with Markn that with the cross border divide, if in a country where the coin is foreign I have some protection for its type and value.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Chingford

[headsortails]

I have a boot in each camp here, I whole heartitly agree with Rob, why do I need someone to tell me the coin type/grade, that is an opinion I will form for myself, no matter what the label says, but also agree with Markn that with the cross border divide, if in a country where the coin is foreign I have some protection for its type and value.

I have A 1854 plain trident,were gratia looks like it is over stamped,im wondering if it's a/v I don't think it is realy

its just a thought, allso the date looks like it's been stamped twice.

[azda]

I have a boot in each camp here, I whole heartitly agree with Rob, why do I need someone to tell me the coin type/grade, that is an opinion I will form for myself, no matter what the label says, but also agree with Markn that with the cross border divide, if in a country where the coin is foreign I have some protection for its type and value.

I have A 1854 plain trident,were gratia looks like it is over stamped,im wondering if it's a/v I don't think it is realy

its just a thought, allso the date looks like it's been stamped twice.

Its a fairly common occurance for the Victoria Copper Pennies. The dies were touched up many times, hence you see so much doubling on the legends.