fake 2005 proof £1?

[Godot]

A little while ago I decided to start a little collection of proof £1 coins from Ebay, mostly for fun but also to have something to reference when trying to spot fake pound coins in my change. Ironically I'm now wondering if one of the proof coins is a fake. The colour isn't quite right, there is a noticeable chip in the rim towards the obverse and there are areas on the lettering which are a different colour than the rest of the coin. Today I decided to remove the coin from it's capsule so I could examine the edge design and take a few photos, and here's what I saw :

Am I right in thinking that the two ends of the design should align on both ends of the coin and the dot always in the centre? If so, does this prove this is a counterfeit?

Here are some photos of the obverse and reverse in full and two closeups of the chip in the rim and the colour differences on the lettering.

One of the other reasons I've been collecting them is because I want to take some nice closeup photos, although I didn't think I'd be doing it for this reason..!

[Peckris]

A little while ago I decided to start a little collection of proof £1 coins from Ebay, mostly for fun but also to have something to reference when trying to spot fake pound coins in my change. Ironically I'm now wondering if one of the proof coins is a fake. The colour isn't quite right, there is a noticeable chip in the rim towards the obverse and there are areas on the lettering which are a different colour than the rest of the coin. Today I decided to remove the coin from it's capsule so I could examine the edge design and take a few photos, and here's what I saw :

Am I right in thinking that the two ends of the design should align on both ends of the coin and the dot always in the centre? If so, does this prove this is a counterfeit?

Here are some photos of the obverse and reverse in full and two closeups of the chip in the rim and the colour differences on the lettering.

One of the other reasons I've been collecting them is because I want to take some nice closeup photos, although I didn't think I'd be doing it for this reason..!

I have a problem with your question. It's this : I can understand why people would counterfeit currency £1 coins, it's been an epidemic almost since the day they were introduced. But why, given the difficulty and costs involved, would anyone bother to fake a proof £1 coin? Remember - these proofs are struck using highly polished dies on specially prepared blanks. Wouldn't it be more likely that the Mint's quality control (which as we all know seems to have been declining recently) had an off day, and the occasional rogue proof escaped?

As to the details you asked specifically about alignment etc, I'll leave that to others who know more about that.

[The Dark Numismatist]

A little while ago I decided to start a little collection of proof £1 coins from Ebay, mostly for fun but also to have something to reference when trying to spot fake pound coins in my change. Ironically I'm now wondering if one of the proof coins is a fake. The colour isn't quite right, there is a noticeable chip in the rim towards the obverse and there are areas on the lettering which are a different colour than the rest of the coin. Today I decided to remove the coin from it's capsule so I could examine the edge design and take a few photos, and here's what I saw :

Am I right in thinking that the two ends of the design should align on both ends of the coin and the dot always in the centre? If so, does this prove this is a counterfeit?

Here are some photos of the obverse and reverse in full and two closeups of the chip in the rim and the colour differences on the lettering.

One of the other reasons I've been collecting them is because I want to take some nice closeup photos, although I didn't think I'd be doing it for this reason..!

I have a problem with your question. It's this : I can understand why people would counterfeit currency £1 coins, it's been an epidemic almost since the day they were introduced. But why, given the difficulty and costs involved, would anyone bother to fake a proof £1 coin? Remember - these proofs are struck using highly polished dies on specially prepared blanks. Wouldn't it be more likely that the Mint's quality control (which as we all know seems to have been declining recently) had an off day, and the occasional rogue proof escaped?

As to the details you asked specifically about alignment etc, I'll leave that to others who know more about that.

I agree with Peckris. Counterfeit pound coins are made by criminals who are only interested in the profit which comes with mass production. I know that there is a thriving trade in good quality counterfeits from the far east but these are for high value collectors' coins and the one pound coin has not as yet attained this status, not even the 1988 Gorringe 'rarity' (I use the term in the same way that it is used on eBay - tongue in cheek!). Looking at your excellent images I would say that the coin is definitely genuine, and from the pictures I would agree that it probably is a proof. The misalignment of the ends of the Bridges and Pathways motif is common on coins of that series and in particular the 2005 issue which, above the others, seems to carry more than its fair share of quality control issues. I would suggest that the coin may have been abused by a previous owner, resulting in the damage to the edges, there being no way of telling whether the coin had been removed from its capsule prior to your receiving it. I scrolled through your interesting series of fake pounds on Flickr, and found another 2005 with misaligned edges. Again, it is my opinion that coin is genuine, despite the misalignment of the Bridges and Pathways motif, and despite the weak strike on the obverse. I have seen a large number of genuine 2005 coins with these faults, all examples of the Royal Mint's poor quality control at that time.

[Godot]

Thanks very much for the informtive replies. The alignment of the patterns round the edge of the bridge coins is something I've been wondering about for a while and thought I'd ask here as I couldn't find any definitive answer on the 'net, not even in Robert Matthew's pages on counterfeit pounds. The photos of that other 2005 pound (1 / 2) have now been updated to reflect what the Dark Numismatist said above.

With regards to why someone would bother counterfeiting proof coins, my original thought was that it would be less risk and greater profit, but now it seems unlikely now I think about it.

For anyone who hasn't seen the photos mentioned above, here are the only three pound coins I've found so far that I'm 100% certain are fake :

1 :

2:

and

3:

(bottom left!)

Edited January 31, 2011 by Godot

[Godot]

3:

(bottom left!)

Apologies, the second link should have been this -

[Cerbera100]

Thats a nice little set you have there! I've been pulling fakes out of circulation for about 5 years, and have about 40... also have a bag of shocking attempts which I bought at a club auction!

Drop me a PM, and I'll email you some nice ones!

[RobJ]

I tend to agree with what has already been said here. It does look to be a genuine Proof Issue, however I imagine one of its previous owners has mistreated it as I can't imagine it leaving the Royal Mint in any condition close to that on a bad day or not.

Perhaps someone was checking to see if it is a Gold Proof Issue, as that may explain the very nasty 'Chunk' taken from it, also the lettering looks as if it has been rubbed against something, which may explain the discolouration?

I have also seen various Circulation and BU Issues with misaligned edges, so I do not think that is anything to worry about.

Although with a Proof Issue you may well expect them to be aligned perfectly, so I do think that is an oversight on the Royal Mint's behalf. lol

[Godot]

Perhaps someone was checking to see if it is a Gold Proof Issue, as that may explain the very nasty 'Chunk' taken from it, also the lettering looks as if it has been rubbed against something, which may explain the discolouration?

Yes, that makes a lot of sense now you mention it. Probably more a localized absence of 'frosting' than a discolouration.

Interestingly I found that the rim of my 2007 proof pound coin also had a slight error when photographing it for comparison :

As you can see, part of the 'chain' is missing altogether.

I don't think I'll ever lose my obsession with trying to find fake pound coins. My family and friends think I've gone a bit daft when I offer them a genuine pound coin in return for any particularly interesting fakes or possible fakes I find in their change!

[azda]

I don't Know why No One has mentioned it before, but in the forum Category free for all, there is a Useful Links thread, in there, There's a link to Fake 1 pound coins.

I'm not just a pretty face, i have My uses

[Peckris]

I'm not just a pretty face

No, the gruesome truth is hidden behind your sprog

[azda]

My sprog is as good looking As me Peck

[Peckris]

My sprog is as good looking As me Peck

With a torch under YOUR chin too Az? Go on then, I dare you, put up a picture!

[Cerbera100]

Thats a nice little set you have there! I've been pulling fakes out of circulation for about 5 years, and have about 40... also have a bag of shocking attempts which I bought at a club auction!

Drop me a PM, and I'll email you some nice ones!

Ok... I've finally got round to photoing and uploading some of the better (or worse?!) fake pounds that I have... Album can be found here...

Three photos of each - obv, rev and edge. Any comments welcome!

[Godot]

Ok... I've finally got round to photoing and uploading some of the better (or worse?!) fake pounds that I have... Album can be found here...

Three photos of each - obv, rev and edge. Any comments welcome!

Apologies for the late reply and threadbump. I had PC problems and had forgotten all about this by the time I was back online properly.

Most of those are pretty shocking, though I'd like to hear why you thought this one was fake :

http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n589/Cerbera100/FakePounds031.jpg

http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n589/Cerbera100/?action=view&current=FakePounds030.jpg

http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n589/Cerbera100/FakePounds033.jpg

Is it because the dot on the rim should be exactly equidistant from each end of the 'railings'? I've got a couple of suspect 2005 pound coins which have the same anomalies on the edge design, ie. the railings are misaligned, the dot isn't equidistant and the railings on one side are much thicker than the other.

The number of obvious fakes in my change seems to have decreased quite markedly over the last year, though I am finding some coins that I think are really convincing fakes. I'll try to post some links to photographs and weights/measurements later.

[Cerbera100]

Two reasons really...

Firstly, the die alignment is as per the pictures (ie about 50degrees out!)...

Second, the severe lack of detail on the hair - could be wear but the front of the tiara is much better...

Also, when 'in hand' it just feels wrong!

[Godot]

Two reasons really...

Firstly, the die alignment is as per the pictures (ie about 50degrees out!)...

Second, the severe lack of detail on the hair - could be wear but the front of the tiara is much better...

Also, when 'in hand' it just feels wrong!

Ah, I didn't realize the die alignment was out. Surprising they can do a reasonable job of it but still mess up something that fundamental.

Here's a 2001 quid which I've no doubts is a fake. The coin is underweight (9.40g), overlarge (diam : 22.62mm), and the design is obviously soft and lacking detail compared to the genuine circulated item. What clinches it is the die alignment being out and the abysmal quality of the inscription. Also note the parallel cracks on the surface of the reverse.

Reverse (fake is on the right, genuine coin to the left) :

Obverse (fake is on the left, genuine coin on the right) :

Portion of edge :

I've uploaded them in maximum resolution and enabled downloading so anyone as obsessed with fake quids as me can grab them! Click 'action' > 'all sizes' to get the big versions.

[Red Riley]

The thing they can never disguise is the wobbly lettering on the edge.

[VickySilver]

The original post coin looks genuine to me. A huge problem is that coinage seems IMO to be a nuisance to the Royal Mint, even though it is their business and I am not so confident in their quality control on "legitimate" issues. I have seen other proofs struck on problematic planchets, etc.

Currency strikes are very hard to judge the best of counterfeits as the originals are struck on pot-metal and not so grand to begin with...

[Godot]

The original post coin looks genuine to me. A huge problem is that coinage seems IMO to be a nuisance to the Royal Mint, even though it is their business and I am not so confident in their quality control on "legitimate" issues. I have seen other proofs struck on problematic planchets, etc.

Currency strikes are very hard to judge the best of counterfeits as the originals are struck on pot-metal and not so grand to begin with...

That's very much the view I'm coming too. I also agree that the coin in my original post is almost certainly genuine now I've learned a bit about fake quids. Speaking of which, I've managed to get a few more photos done. All are available at high resolution so you can have a close look.

2 x fake 2005 £1 coins :

obverse + reverse (coin in the middle is genuine circulated one for comparison)

edge

fake 1993 £1 coin :

obverse + reverse, (fake is on the right, genuine circulated one on the left)

edge (fake is on top, genuine circulated bottom)

I'd also be interested in anyone's thoughts on this 2003 pound coin :

obverse + reverse (suspected fake on right, genuine uncirculated on left)

edge (suspected fake on top, genuine uncirculated on bottom)

The weight, diameter, width and die alignment are all good and there's nothing on the reverse + obverse that would give you reason to think it fake, but it looks to me like there are significant enough differences in the character and spacing of the edge inscription (esp. between the N of TUTAMEN, the cross and the D of DECUS) that this must be counterfeit? If it is fake then it's one of the most convincing I've seen. You need to look at the full resolution image to really see what I'm talking about.