CGS Grading

[azda]

Ok, i know this issue comes up every other month, but i really have to know. CGS grade coins, they are harsh at times, i'm asking, where do they get their grades from?

I'm told or have read here on the forum that they have their own yardstick, so do they measure every coin from what they have seen?

The reason i ask is this, the Workman sale part 2, lot number 48 described as (Bronze Proof. BMC 1702. F 81. Dies 8+H. Gouby P. Superb As Struck with full original colour.

Slabbed by CGS as 90.

As such the finest known

As you can see above, the words "finest known" so how come still 90, i mean, if they've never seen anything better then their yardstick has been broken, this infuriates me, their grading is surely taking the piss

[ski]

ive had this discussion with cgs myself, their grading system seems erratic, ive 2 1934 tanners graded by them, 1 unc80 and 1 unc85.....guess which one is the better coin.

finest known however is only whats past through their hands and slabbed and not a reflection of what is available elsewhere.

[VickySilver]

I think they have a general scale to which the type is graded. 90 would be a very nice coin, as an example, but improvable.

[Hussulo]

I think they have a type set for grading reference. Say bun head pennies graded 1-100 but I find it highly improbable that they have type sets for ALL types of coins they grade.

It could be a 90 and the finest known. Meaning it still isn't perfect (100) and the likelihood is there never will be a coin of that type graded 100. It doesn't make it any less of a coin.

[1949threepence]

Ok, i know this issue comes up every other month, but i really have to know. CGS grade coins, they are harsh at times, i'm asking, where do they get their grades from?

I'm told or have read here on the forum that they have their own yardstick, so do they measure every coin from what they have seen?

The reason i ask is this, the Workman sale part 2, lot number 48 described as (Bronze Proof. BMC 1702. F 81. Dies 8+H. Gouby P. Superb As Struck with full original colour.

Slabbed by CGS as 90.

As such the finest known

As you can see above, the words "finest known" so how come still 90, i mean, if they've never seen anything better then their yardstick has been broken, this infuriates me, their grading is surely taking the piss

I think what they mean, Dave, is "finest known by them"

That leaves room for something finer, hence the 90.

[Sylvester]

This is perfectly normal. They basically mean this is the best coin of its type 'submitted to them', it doesn't mean it is the best in existence. It'd be embarrasing if they'd given it the top grade and then something better was submitted afterwards!

US coin grading companies have MS70 as the highest grade possible, and MS60 as the lowest grade considered UNC. Most coins fall into the MS62-MS65 category, a tiny percent grade MS66-MS68 but grades above this are uncommon (except for modern BU strikes) some of which are graded MS70. However, there has been much discussion on US forums as to whether MS70 is actually possible, since 70 is absolute perfection (no marks, dings, blemishes, scratches, hairlines, minimum of 100% uninterrupted lustre, full strike no areas of weakness, sharp well defined details and lettering) and thus no coin can be considered perfect due to the way they are manufactured. So the argument was MS69 should be the highest grade possible.

I suppose CGS have decided that 100 is perfect, no coins (at least as evidenced yet so far) will ever reach that mark. 90 will probably be the benchmark for top quality UNC, if anything comes along that is a BU strike but is almost prooflike (deep cameo) and has all lustre and no marks or any other minute imperfections I suppose that it could be graded higher than 90. The only coins that would fall into this category though are going to be 'first strikes', the first hundred or so coins from a new die pairing where everything is fresh and sharp.

[£400 for a Penny ?]

I believe they have never given a coin '100' before, think 95 is the highest to date.

IME, anything over 75 is a nice coin.

[azda]

So basically they're leaving that 10% margin incase something better comes along, very astute, but something no one will ever see or hear of i assume, so taking into consideration of Slyvesters post about the American grading of MS-70, why have 100 if nothing could EVER get near it as it would have to be absolute perfection, which is something you'll never find with old coins.

Perhaps they should alter their scale down 1 point to 99?

[Sylvester]

Perhaps they should alter their scale down 1 point to 99?

Well in effect that's probably what we've got, in all but name.

[£400 for a Penny ?]

What has prompted this bilious outburst anyhow ?

Send it off, see how you get on - and then we can all put our tin hats on and sit in the trench for when you get it back....

[Colin G.]

I think half the problem is that we are such a difficult bunch to please, we ourselves are constantly discussing technical aspects of grades and disagreeing so how on earth does anyone come up with a scale that will please all of us

I have never been an advocate of slabbing, but I must admit I am now slowly warming to the idea, but I still have reservations.

I don't see the issue with not achieving a grade of 100, in much the same way as I am the kind of person who does not get ate up about the fact that a coin can never literally be uncirculated.

They offer a service that will benefit some collectors (including themselves) but you can either use it or not, it is that simple

From my experience to date, they give me a lot more confidence in their abilities than any of the US grading companies

[Sylvester]

I think half the problem is that we are such a difficult bunch to please, we ourselves are constantly discussing technical aspects of grades and disagreeing so how on earth does anyone come up with a scale that will please all of us

I have never been an advocate of slabbing, but I must admit I am now slowly warming to the idea, but I still have reservations.

I don't see the issue with not achieving a grade of 100, in much the same way as I am the kind of person who does not get ate up about the fact that a coin can never literally be uncirculated.

They offer a service that will benefit some collectors (including themselves) but you can either use it or not, it is that simple

From my experience to date, they give me a lot more confidence in their abilities than any of the US grading companies

I tend to agree with you.

I have to say though I'm not all that fussed about grades of coins these days, I tend to not bother grading coins anymore (or even looking at the book price for an issue), I just buy based on eye appeal now, if I like it and find the coin to be an attractive specimen (or one of a type I want and can afford) then I tend to just buy it. I suppose the days I spent dabbling in hammered coins had more of an impact upon my collecting habits and attitudes than I first realised. I certainly enjoy collecting coins more than I used to now I'm buying on eye appeal rather than 'grade' (the two of which don't necessarily go hand in hand).

The only exception to this is my decimals which I expect to be pristine.

[declanwmagee]

I have to say though I'm not all that fussed about grades of coins these days, I tend to not bother grading coins anymore (or even looking at the book price for an issue), I just buy based on eye appeal now, if I like it and find the coin to be an attractive specimen (or one of a type I want and can afford) then I tend to just buy it. I suppose the days I spent dabbling in hammered coins had more of an impact upon my collecting habits and attitudes than I first realised. I certainly enjoy collecting coins more than I used to now I'm buying on eye appeal rather than 'grade' (the two of which don't necessarily go hand in hand).

The only exception to this is my decimals which I expect to be pristine.

Well what about that! I just took an executive decision for my coins on eBay that I wasn't going to give grades anymore unless they are aUNC or UNC. With the misuse of grades out there, being eBay stingiest grader is not a very clever thing to be.

thank you Sylvester, you have given me one of those unexpected confirmations!

[Sylvester]

Well what about that! I just took an executive decision for my coins on eBay that I wasn't going to give grades anymore unless they are aUNC or UNC. With the misuse of grades out there, being eBay stingiest grader is not a very clever thing to be.

thank you Sylvester, you have given me one of those unexpected confirmations!

I have my uses! A wise move i'd say.

My philosophy is that grading is entirely subjective, I mean take the 'scientific' US grading companies whose goal is to make it as objective and precise as possible, one of their grading criteria is 'eye appeal'! Eye appeal is entirely subjective. I've seen coins described as 'beautifully toned' that I think 'eeewww, what a vile colour'. Especially those with rainbow colours (oil spills) or mustard yellows.

Grading isn't objective, it's entirely subjective. For example; buyers tend to undergrade (looking for problems), sellers tend to overgrade, it's amazing how a coin's grade can slide slightly upwards once you own it and see it in hand, you suddenly start looking for the positives rather than the negatives. Often without knowing it either.

[declanwmagee]

I'm taking mitage figures off now too. They give a false idea of occurrence. If I say 23m of a coin were issued, people are going to think there's 23m of them out there, and we know that's not the case!

[azda]

I tend to think, that if you don't mention any grade on ebay these days, you are more likely to sell for a good price because others are then grading themselves, and as Slyvester says (again) people tend to overgrade so thus in their own minds eye they are thinking, wow this is aUNC when its maybe EF, then they take a sniff at Spink and bidding begins.

A good object lesson for those making a living from eBay, plus there's no real comeback for grading issues. In answer to 400s question about my CGS outburst. When i see a coin graded by CGS and its the finest known i would tend to think that the grade (especially for a proof) would have been nearer 95-99 ish hence i spat my dummy out

[Colin G.]

hence i spat my dummy out

That's unlike you Dave

I know where you are coming from, but the couple of farthings I have slabbed are 85's and they are very nice coins, with great eye appeal, so a 90 must be the dogs danglies!!!

I dread to think what a 99 must be like......holy grail material

[declanwmagee]

hence i spat my dummy out

That's unlike you Dave

I know where you are coming from, but the couple of farthings I have slabbed are 85's and they are very nice coins, with great eye appeal, so a 90 must be the dogs danglies!!!

I dread to think what a 99 must be like......holy grail material

as it should be. Even most 1967 pennies aren't real BUs

[azda]

hence i spat my dummy out

That's unlike you Dave

I know where you are coming from, but the couple of farthings I have slabbed are 85's and they are very nice coins, with great eye appeal, so a 90 must be the dogs danglies!!!

I dread to think what a 99 must be like......holy grail material

99 must be the holy grail Colin, i wonder if they've slabbed anything predecimal in that grade. Dummy firmly reinstated to said gob

[Colin G.]

It is worth registering on the site and looking at the population report, you can see photos of some of the coins

[azda]

It is worth registering on the site and looking at the population report, you can see photos of some of the coins

Think i'll have a look this week

[£400 for a Penny ?]

I dread to think what a 99 must be like......holy grail material

Well, It's basically all bollocks isn't it.

It has to be a good coin to get to 75, a very nice coin to get to 82, a superb coin to get to 85 and after that it's the preserve of proofs and they aren't real coins are they.

To be ranting about the 90's is not living in the real world for circulated currency.

[SionGilbey]

I believe they have never given a coin '100' before, think 95 is the highest to date.

IME, anything over 75 is a nice coin.

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=4779&universeid=313

[Colin G.]

Well, It's basically all bollocks isn't it.

[TomGoodheart]

I have to say though I'm not all that fussed about grades of coins these days, I tend to not bother grading coins anymore (or even looking at the book price for an issue), I just buy based on eye appeal now, if I like it and find the coin to be an attractive specimen (or one of a type I want and can afford) then I tend to just buy it. I suppose the days I spent dabbling in hammered coins had more of an impact upon my collecting habits and attitudes than I first realised. I certainly enjoy collecting coins more than I used to now I'm buying on eye appeal rather than 'grade' (the two of which don't necessarily go hand in hand).

This is my view too. In fact I'd be interested whether any of the other hammered coin collectors here feel any differently? In fact, how about the milled lot? Do you honestly buy a coin by grade alone? Surely not! I imagine we all look at a coin and think 'wow' or ' argh' or whatever by comparing what we see with what we have previously seen. Yes, it's nice to get confirmation from other collectors or dealers that our estimate of grading is about right, but ultimately, do we not all buy by eye appeal?

I know I've posted thsi before but here's a coin that suffers from many of the faults of hammered coinage. The flan isn't of uniform thickness leaving weak patches here and there. In fact you can see places where the silver has been folded in but not properly bonded with the rest of the blank before the coin was struck. The dies have cracked with use. And the coin has jumped ever so slightly between blows leading to double striking here and there.

But to me, and despite (or perhaps because of) the flaws, this is still a stonking coin! Eye appeal. 100%