On the subject of forgeries...

[Red Riley]

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Edited May 12, 2010 by Red Riley

[Farmer Palmer]

Gentlemen , im not trying to scaremonger , im trying to learn.This coin was purported to be a 1707 halfcrown , theres no dots on the obverse where they should be.

Ok , so lets say it was geunine and a rarity..an oddity..and before i have my my first cup of tea i find another.

Anne 1707

[TomGoodheart]

Any comments greatly appreciated as it would seem either mine is a fake or this one is , there should be dots after the words is telling me its this one.

I'm inclined to think it's genuine. Counterfeits and fakes are generally less crisp in the lettering in my experience. As to the missing stops .. if you were going to fake something to that accuracy I'd imagine you'd put the stops in. Is the reverse normal looking?

[Farmer Palmer]

Looking at those two the letters seem fine and crisp , nice clear mintmark , so wheres the dots.The reverse looks as it should to my eyes , dots in place.Ive never seen an Anne without them til now.The "youve only been a member a short while" thing really doesnt cut much mustard Red by the way.I buy this type coin regularly and theres something wrong with these two.Both from US dealers too.

[Rob]

Looking at those two the letters seem fine and crisp , nice clear mintmark , so wheres the dots.The reverse looks as it should to my eyes , dots in place.Ive never seen an Anne without them til now.The "youve only been a member a short while" thing really doesnt cut much mustard Red by the way.I buy this type coin regularly and theres something wrong with these two.Both from US dealers too.

The first one looks fairly grotty where the first stop should be, but it looks like a trace of a stop after GRATIA and on the second one all three obverse stops are there albeit weak. Nothing to worry about as far as I can see.

The question of stops always arouses a bit of controversy. The design obviously called for stops, but occasionally they are missed out and so to decide whether a coin genuinely exists in the no stops variety from a particular die I think it is first necessary to find one in mint state or close to so that you can eliminate wear to a stop that may have been very weak in the first place. Most of the claimed no stops coins are usually in fairly dire grade, so it is impossible to say they are genuinely no stops. This problem also exists to my mind for the dump halfpenny which has a die or two which have little more than a pimple in high grade where the mark seen could well be a stop guide, but the stop was never fully punched in. Equally, the absence of a stop could be due to die fill. In this instance, a low grade coin - say VF or below, doesn't show any feature resembling a stop. But that doesn't make it a no stops variety, just an indifferent example of a standard type with weakness.

[Farmer Palmer]

Thanks Rob , the 2nd coin looks even more suspicious to me.What is somewhat bothersome is that ive collected UK silver for a considerable time.Ive been on Ebay for some dozen years or more and using Ebay in the US for 3 years latterly.

To sate my appetite for old silver ive always had to shop on Ebay UK and i tend to stick with one or two guys i feel i can trust.It would seem theres been quite an explosion of Old UK silver on the US ebay in the last few weeks and from the unlikliest sellers.Are we to believe these are genuine without taking the opportunity to examine closely?

Ive given it thought and there could be reasons the UK silver is being touted whether genuine or not and that is the US collectors inspect coins like hawks,very little passes their inspection if it isnt genuine.However they wont be experts here in the UK types.The same coin today , 1707 E , one sells for 50 dollars and the other a pricetag of a few hundred..something isnt right.Both sellers have extensive collections of european coinage for sale yet reside in the US.

Lets remember the Chinese fake factories have already fooled PCGS,the days of dire poor fakes are gone.

Id ask members to do one thing , go to Ebay USA , coins , replicas , and browse the chinese fakes.Then tell me you can be confident.

[Farmer Palmer]

Looks pretty good doesnt it , keep in mind what people are doing is requesting the coins not be stamped copy.Dont believe me , try it yourself.No harm in asking right ?

Edited May 12, 2010 by Farmer Palmer

[£400 for a Penny ?]

For what my opinion is worth, I think those Anne's are ok.

There is a balance to be struck - Red is right to say that most coins and most sellers are ok, it comes back to the ancient principle of Caveat Emptor again and again.

Not disputing there are an increasing number of clever fakes, but sorting the wheat from the chaff is the essence of the hobby, always has been.

[Farmer Palmer]

Theres a Geo lll looking right back at us and its a known fake , its beyond clever , its damn near perfect.Its one thing to say most sellers and most coins are ok and buyer beware , i call it burying ones head in the sand.

The writing is on the wall gentlemen for those with eyes to see , Ebay sellers are making a lot of money passing these fakes off , theres the motivation.These fakes cost 10 cents , thats about 7p.

Often on coin forums when this subject is brought up there are always those who would rather it wasnt.

[£400 for a Penny ?]

Tell you what my friend, it's rubbish.

And our heads are not in the sand, they are in our books.

Respect to all, as always.

Edited May 12, 2010 by £400 for a Penny ?

[azda]

I got an 1818 Geo III HC earlier this year, the crown and the head were upside down on that particular one, there was a long debate about it until someone came along with a genuine one. Where the 3 lions are there is lines going through the shield, the one i had, had the lines running through the lions tail, the genuine one didn't. Weight should always be checked along with any wear to the silver to see if there's brass colouring underneath

[Farmer Palmer]

Tell you what my friend, it's rubbish.

And our heads are not in the sand, they are in our books.

Respect to all, as always.

It is far from rubbish my friend , respected dealers have told me and ive seen with my own eyes the fakes are out there and good enough to fool anyone , books or no books.

I suggest you do some research pal.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Farmer Palmer

[Peckris]

Looks pretty good doesnt it , keep in mind what people are doing is requesting the coins not be stamped copy.Dont believe me , try it yourself.No harm in asking right ?

I'm not sure what you're saying Farmer. This coin IS stamped "copy" - look, high on the reverse. It's absolutely plain and clear, you can't miss it.

[1949threepence]

Hi Guys , heres an interesting one.In no way am i saying its a replica or if its genuine although i am leaning heavily to the former.

Luckily i already own one of these to compare with albeit mine is an ex jewelry piece (which at least would seem to confirm its probably genuine)Considering its the same date and same mint i struggle to understand why some of the small details like the dots are missing.

Any comments greatly appreciated as it would seem either mine is a fake or this one is , there should be dots after the words is telling me its this one.

I've been sitting looking at the pic for about 10 minutes, and as much as I would like to agree with you, I keep arriving back at the same conclusion, FP: that it's genuine. The coin is well worn, and the dots are probably among the first things to vanish with wear. Moreover, unless you are indicating that it's a contemporary forgery, I can't see why any modern forger, would want to strike a coin and wear it down artificially. What would be the point ? If it's silver they might as well just sell it for bullion value.

I understand the need for vigilance, and I applaud you for making this a relevant issue on here. I really do. We do need to have our eyes wide open for scams. But on this occasion, I honestly think the coin is an authentic well worn piece of its time.

[1949threepence]

Looks pretty good doesnt it , keep in mind what people are doing is requesting the coins not be stamped copy.Dont believe me , try it yourself.No harm in asking right ?

Even before I saw the word "copy", I knew that was a fake. It screams at you from every level. Can't even say exactly why in a logical fashion. There's just something about it that says modern metal.

It probably sounds stupid, but I just knew straight off.

[1949threepence]

Thanks Rob , the 2nd coin looks even more suspicious to me.What is somewhat bothersome is that ive collected UK silver for a considerable time.Ive been on Ebay for some dozen years or more and using Ebay in the US for 3 years latterly.

To sate my appetite for old silver ive always had to shop on Ebay UK and i tend to stick with one or two guys i feel i can trust.It would seem theres been quite an explosion of Old UK silver on the US ebay in the last few weeks and from the unlikliest sellers.Are we to believe these are genuine without taking the opportunity to examine closely?

Ive given it thought and there could be reasons the UK silver is being touted whether genuine or not and that is the US collectors inspect coins like hawks,very little passes their inspection if it isnt genuine.However they wont be experts here in the UK types.The same coin today , 1707 E , one sells for 50 dollars and the other a pricetag of a few hundred..something isnt right.Both sellers have extensive collections of european coinage for sale yet reside in the US.

Lets remember the Chinese fake factories have already fooled PCGS,the days of dire poor fakes are gone.

Id ask members to do one thing , go to Ebay USA , coins , replicas , and browse the chinese fakes.Then tell me you can be confident.

This weekend, when I've got a bit of spare time, I'll do just that, and report back here with a comment or two.

[1949threepence]

Gentlemen , im not trying to scaremonger , im trying to learn.This coin was purported to be a 1707 halfcrown , theres no dots on the obverse where they should be.

Ok , so lets say it was geunine and a rarity..an oddity..and before i have my my first cup of tea i find another.

Anne 1707

Definitely genuine, the reverse being better than the obverse. Also, it has that appearance of wear to one of the numbers in the date, that is so typical of those coins, even on high grade examples.

Edited May 12, 2010 by 1949threepence

[Peckris]

Gentlemen , im not trying to scaremonger , im trying to learn.This coin was purported to be a 1707 halfcrown , theres no dots on the obverse where they should be.

Ok , so lets say it was geunine and a rarity..an oddity..and before i have my my first cup of tea i find another.

Anne 1707

Definitely genuine, the reverse being better than the obverse. Also, it has that appearance of wear to one of the numbers in the date, that is so typical of those coins, even on high grade examples.

I agree. Everything about it screams "kosher", and I've seen plenty around that grade in my time. I'd say the "missing" dots are a combination of mount damage (between ANNA & DEI) and wear, but in fact if you look VERY closely there appears to be the faint trace of a dot after GRATIA, and a heavy wear 'smear' after DEI. At least, in that photo.

[1949threepence]

Id ask members to do one thing , go to Ebay USA , coins , replicas , and browse the chinese fakes.Then tell me you can be confident.

This weekend, when I've got a bit of spare time, I'll do just that, and report back here with a comment or two.

OK, I'm a man of my word, and I have indeed checked some of the replicas on US e bay. I agree they do look very convincing to a person who has no knowledge of the coins concerned ~ and I must admit that I don't, as all the ones I looked at were foreign. In the absence of a yardstick to compare to, I'm sadly unable to offer a further meaningful opinion.

There might be some British coins on there, but unfortunately they are not sub divided out, and I haven't got time to trawl through 77 pages worth.

[TomGoodheart]

Mmm .. something like this I suspect I'd only know if it was in my hand*.

As always, it shows the importance of knowing your field. But even then if someone wants to fool you, with the technology available today, it might be very difficult to detect. I suppose that's when knowing who you buy from (or getting some assurance about their returns policy) comes into play.

Sad. But I guess, that's life. Even the Romans said caveat emptor.

* Yes. Assuming it wasn't stamped REPLICA that is!

Edited May 15, 2010 by TomGoodheart

[davidrj]

Mmm .. something like this I suspect I'd only know if it was in my hand*.

As always, it shows the importance of knowing your field. But even then if someone wants to fool you, with the technology available today, it might be very difficult to detect. I suppose that's when knowing who you buy from (or getting some assurance about their returns policy) comes into play.

Sad. But I guess, that's life. Even the Romans said caveat emptor.

* Yes. Assuming it wasn't stamped REPLICA that is!

Not just classics - undated 20p :-(

[£400 for a Penny ?]

Can you not get into quite serious trouble for forging current currency, replica or not ?

[Peckris]

Mmm .. something like this I suspect I'd only know if it was in my hand*.

As always, it shows the importance of knowing your field. But even then if someone wants to fool you, with the technology available today, it might be very difficult to detect. I suppose that's when knowing who you buy from (or getting some assurance about their returns policy) comes into play.

Sad. But I guess, that's life. Even the Romans said caveat emptor.

* Yes. Assuming it wasn't stamped REPLICA that is!

I know absolutely zilch about Aussie coinage.. But the strong impression I'm getting is that that is a genuine coin, which someone has stamped 'REPLICA' onto. In other words, a fake replica!

[TomGoodheart]

I know absolutely zilch about Aussie coinage.. But the strong impression I'm getting is that that is a genuine coin, which someone has stamped 'REPLICA' onto. In other words, a fake replica!

Now you're just giving me a headache!

[scott]

yea fake 20ps