joe_77 Posted July 18 Posted July 18 (edited) Hello everyone, I am looking for more information on the different types of proofs which were made for the 1960 British Exhibition Crown. I would very much appreciate some confirmations from the experts in the forum. My current understanding is the following: The 80ies book on Crowns by Davies mentions three proofs: prooflike, vip proofs and even silver ones The Royal Mint Report from that year makes no mention of any of that Regarding the silver ones, the Royal Mint replied to my enquiry that "if it's not in the report it doesn't exist" I could not find sales for the silver version. We have however VIP proofs which are not so infrequently sold One sale on HA mentions proofs "patinated in Silver" for VIP version (Auction #3098 / Lot #33907) No 1960 crowns were minted at the US exhibition (clearly stated in the Royal Mint report), they only minted the medals So all in all: Do Silver proofs exist or is the book by Davis mistaken? Weren't "prooflike" ones already made from polished dies? So what are VIP ones.. super duper polished dies? Are the VIP proofs made by "specially polished dies" or were they plated in silver? In real life, are proof like vs vip ones visibly different? How so? Is it just the cameo effect? Where does the "common knowledge" of the VIP proofs made from polished dies even come from? Are the 30-50 vip vs 70000 prooflike figures validated by any reference/document? And what about the Cameo/UltraCameo/VIP distinction -- is that just a split of the otherwise equal VIP population? Thank you in advance for any info you will be able to share on this matter! Edited July 18 by joe_77 2 Quote
joe_77 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 These are the relevant extracts from the Royal Mint Annual Report of 1960. 1 Quote
joe_77 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 This is the book I'm referencing in the above post. Quote
joe_77 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 A record sale I could find was for 30000£ in 2024 for a 67 UltraCameo (top pop, the one featured in the image above). PCGS Census: https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/elizabeth-ii-1953-1970/1960-crown-s-4143/4004?sn=619056 https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/elizabeth-ii-1953-1970/1960-crown-s-4143-v-p/4004?sn=206568 https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/elizabeth-ii-1953-1970/1960-crown-s-4143-v-p-cam/4004?sn=393750 https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/elizabeth-ii-1953-1970/1960-crown-s-4143-v-p-dcam/4004?sn=528907 Total VIP: 23 NGC Census: https://www.ngccoin.com/population-report/great-britain/13/1902-1970/129/crown/4144/all/463555/varieties/ https://www.ngccoin.com/population-report/great-britain/13/1902-1970/129/crown/4144/all/471241/varieties/ https://www.ngccoin.com/population-report/great-britain/13/1902-1970/129/crown/4144/all/471313/varieties/ https://www.ngccoin.com/population-report/great-britain/13/1902-1970/129/crown/4144/all/471310/varieties/ Total VIP: 33 Quote
joe_77 Posted July 18 Author Posted July 18 (edited) I had to stitch the topic together with multiple messages because of the current tech issues with the forum. Unfortunately I'm not able to order the extracts from the Royal Mint properly (the two pieces about the Exhibition are inverted). By the way, here's a similar discussion I started for completeness sake: https://goccf.com/t/479888 The interesting fact that emerged from that discussion is that the Davies book seems to suggest to "ping test" the Crowns to find the silver specimens. Kind of difficult when most of the VIPs are now probably slabbed. Thanks everyone! Edited July 18 by joe_77 1 Quote
Coinery Posted July 18 Posted July 18 (edited) Not my area but an interesting read…and 30,000, wow! Edited July 18 by Coinery Quote
VickySilver Posted July 18 Posted July 18 Yea, that is a crazy number. This is RIGHT UP MY ALLEY, and I have NEVER seen an actual silver specimen. Satin, PL and proofs of CuNi I have seen. IMHO, the latter is not rare enough to warrant the prices fetched and would downgrade the scarcity rating of this coin (VIP Record Proofs). 1 Quote
Peckris 2 Posted July 19 Posted July 19 The New York examples were struck on polished dies, hence prooflike. They're scarcer than the regular but not sure of the relative mintages. Quote
VickySilver Posted July 20 Posted July 20 Should ask Mr. Steve Hill if he knows of silver 0.925 versions... Quote
joe_77 Posted July 20 Author Posted July 20 (edited) On 7/18/2025 at 10:28 PM, VickySilver said: Yea, that is a crazy number. This is RIGHT UP MY ALLEY, and I have NEVER seen an actual silver specimen. Satin, PL and proofs of CuNi I have seen. IMHO, the latter is not rare enough to warrant the prices fetched and would downgrade the scarcity rating of this coin (VIP Record Proofs). Hello, thank you for your reply! Could you clarify --- are you saying that you believe more VIP Proofs were minted as opposed to the 30-50 figure I find online OR do you believe the prices are too high for coins with a mintage of say 50? The 30k £ was top pop. Non-top pop specimens go for less, like 4-8k £. One just sold few minutes ago (PCGS PF63 CAM) at auction for 5k £. 9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said: The New York examples were struck on polished dies, hence prooflike. They're scarcer than the regular but not sure of the relative mintages. According to the Annual report we know for certain that 18.000 were brought to New York -- assuming they were all proof-like. Numista states 70.000 for the whole proof-like mintage; not sure where that figure is from. As far as VIP, I keep finding 30-50 online but again, no idea where that figure comes from! 7 hours ago, VickySilver said: Should ask Mr. Steve Hill if he knows of silver 0.925 versions... Is he on the forum? I shall write an email to him immidiately! Edited July 20 by joe_77 Quote
oldcopper Posted July 20 Posted July 20 (edited) Unless it's struck on a thinner flan, a sterling silver version would be about 15% heavier than the cupro-nickel version (from the specific gravity/density comparisons). Edited July 20 by oldcopper 1 Quote
Paddy Posted July 20 Posted July 20 Not that it is any more likely to be correct than any other source, but my old copy of Krause (38th edition dated 2010) reads: 1960 - 1,024,000 1960 Prooflike - 70,000 1960 Proof - Note VIP proof - 30-50 pieces So that maybe where people are getting that figure. No figure against Proof suggests they have no data on that. They do not list Silver proof at all. 1 Quote
VickySilver Posted July 20 Posted July 20 8 hours ago, joe_77 said: Hello, thank you for your reply! Could you clarify --- are you saying that you believe more VIP Proofs were minted as opposed to the 30-50 figure I find online OR do you believe the prices are too high for coins with a mintage of say 50? The 30k £ was top pop. Non-top pop specimens go for less, like 4-8k £. One just sold few minutes ago (PCGS PF63 CAM) at auction for 5k £. According to the Annual report we know for certain that 18.000 were brought to New York -- assuming they were all proof-like. Numista states 70.000 for the whole proof-like mintage; not sure where that figure is from. As far as VIP, I keep finding 30-50 online but again, no idea where that figure comes from! Is he on the forum? I shall write an email to him immidiately! S. Hill is at Sovereign Rarities. Quote
joe_77 Posted July 21 Author Posted July 21 20 hours ago, oldcopper said: Unless it's struck on a thinner flan, a sterling silver version would be about 15% heavier than the cupro-nickel version (from the specific gravity/density comparisons). Excellent point! This would also make an easy marker to distinguish between varieties so one would think a reference book would lead with this as opposed to a "ping test" ? Is there any chance to get in touch with Mr. Davies to ask for clarification on this? 14 hours ago, VickySilver said: S. Hill is at Sovereign Rarities. I wrote to him yesterday; will update if I get a reply! Quote
joe_77 Posted July 22 Author Posted July 22 I was able to get a reply from Mr. Hill which I will summarise below. Many Thanks to Mr. Hill for his help! Quote [..] “VIP” Proof that has the lettering and design frosted with a nice cameo effect – nobody knows how many made! Krause indication is an estimate of how many exist which equates to what I have probably seen in commerce – maybe 20? I have never seen a 0.925 silver version [..], the more recent publications do not list a silver proof version at all. I note in the 1960s publication of Pattern and Proof Crown Size pieces by Linecar and Stone that they list a proof silver version as number 8 and cite the sale of one in Glendinings on 4th October 1962 lot 322 that sold for a massive £42 and was apparently “fine silver” which presumably means 0.999. Interestingly the same sale has one of the plain edge mistrikes in the next lot which sold for £58! - all bought by Spink. I will try to get in touch with Spink on the matter! 1 Quote
david.bordeaux Posted July 22 Posted July 22 Here is the relevant page from Linecar and Stone, in case this is of help. Linecar.pdf 1 Quote
joe_77 Posted July 22 Author Posted July 22 Thank you very much David, it sure does help! Does anyone have the 1962 catalogue from Glendinings ? I'm trying to find also that for completeness sake. If none has it I might try to buy one or ask for help from one of the sellers! Quote
oldcopper Posted July 22 Posted July 22 40 minutes ago, joe_77 said: Thank you very much David, it sure does help! Does anyone have the 1962 catalogue from Glendinings ? I'm trying to find also that for completeness sake. If none has it I might try to buy one or ask for help from one of the sellers! I do, but unfortunately it's not for sale. It doesn't give any more information (and neither for the pictured and succeeding lot 323 plain edged, bevelled rim type) than is quoted in L&S. I haven't got the prices realised, and there don't appear to be any estimates (either listed or with the entries) in the catalogue. Quote
joe_77 Posted July 22 Author Posted July 22 (edited) Thanks for chiming in, oldcopper! Again thanks to Mr. Hill I was able to find the catalogue in question here: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=512958&AuctionId=534081 Posting here for posterity the relevant bits. Edited July 22 by joe_77 1 Quote
joe_77 Posted July 22 Author Posted July 22 I was also able to get a better pic of the Davies book as to properly read the footnotes. Thanks to all the kind people who are helping out on this quest to get more info on these coins! Quote
joe_77 Posted July 22 Author Posted July 22 Continuing the collection of reference material on the matter, here's from English Silver Coinage by Bull. Footnote 3 states "Struck on polished dies for sale at the British Trade Exposition in New York". Quote
david.bordeaux Posted July 22 Posted July 22 The entry for 4337 in the 7th edition of Bull has been corrected to read "Struck in cupro-nickel". 2 Quote
joe_77 Posted July 22 Author Posted July 22 Last reference I found is from English Silver Crowns by Day. Footnotes 220 refers to the Annual Mint Report (which I shared earlier in the post) and 221 refers to the Communication to the author from the Libraria and Curator of the Royal Mint, dated April 25th 1961 (I shall find it and post it). 1 Quote
VickySilver Posted July 22 Posted July 22 Your efforts are appreciated as I really do like the 20th century crowns and have followed them for many years. I would not necessarily take all of Davies or even Spink/ESC as gospel. They are good and informative bur I have found other errors or corrections. Again, I have never seen or had reliable information on a sterling 0.925 specimen. BTW, I used to be the main cataloguer for a major work. 1 Quote
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