Evasion and Contemporary Counterfeits

[DrLarry]

A purely selfish move to take images and catalogue the few hundred I have and the hard task to identify these crazy characters has motivated me to start a thread so that some others could join in on my confusion with these illegal entities which now have their own fan club, admittedly mostly the American Market.  But I know many of you have some, if not a lot, and thought you might help me out.  The Only reference I have are some past papers from the BNS and a book by R Coleman and I am in need of help finding a book??/ by Atkins that the americans are always referring to .  Hope it's OK to press on ?

Edited March 7, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

Where to start ?  I am happy to be guided by your great experiences you have all been collecting far longer than I.  Knowing whether something is contemporary or recent is a pretty important reason why I would like to run this thread.  The story is interesting at least and involves some interesting and important characters in History.  I became fascinated by counterfeiting after reading a book on Sir Isaac Newton and his attempts to reduce the counterfeiting in the late 17th C but ,of course, the practice is much much older.  No doubt as soon as the idea of the "coin" came about so did the criminal counterfeiter.  It interests me because I wonder how far the population knows of "light money" and is party to the sharing and passing on of such coins and notes.  I am never happy unless I have considered the social history even if I might never know the answers I still like to think and search for answers.  Lacking access to  a good library ( I miss the British Library)  I think I have reflected in past times on searching for  the one book I mentioned being unavailable for national loan and the irony of the only copy in County Durham happened to be in Durham Jail, a centre of learning !  

So please take me back to your oldest counterfeits my oldest I think is only Charles 1st.

 

[DrLarry]

The Book I refer to is by Thomas Levenson : by faber and faber ...  Newton and the counterfeiter 

[Michael-Roo]

You might enjoy this Larry.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Michael-Roo

[Michael-Roo]

And this:

 

[DrLarry]

11 hours ago, Michael-Roo said:

You might enjoy this Larry.

 

oh thank you so much I am listening to it now 

 

[Michael-Roo]

You're very welcome.

Did you spot, more than once, reference is made to the coining of sovereigns.

1690s?

 

[DrLarry]

45 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

You're very welcome.

Did you spot, more than once, reference is made to the coining of sovereigns.

1690s?

 

Yes I did lol not sure why the guinea was rejected 😅 maybe the language flow was  just wrong !  I listened to it a few years back I think on radio 4 .  Thanks again 

[DrLarry]

I am certain that many Victorian and Georgian coiners realised the potential of copying collectable coins I have little or no experience of these early copies here is a blog that may help: 

https://www.all-your-coins.com/en/blog/antique/comment-identifier-une-fausse-monnaie-antique

My first examples come from Charles 1st a cast it is cast copy i believe of a half crown ; my second has been carefully made to deceive a clever forgery I think two silver Aberystwyth 1111 pence's merged together and then gilded The Half Crown weighs 11.85 grams and seems to have been constructed of 2 thin layers of silver with a copper alloy core 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

I tested the metal and it is sterling with gold  gilding and weighs 3.4 grams   I assume the purpose was to make the Gold Crown but I am sure you will put me right if I am wrong with this one it weighs 3.4 grams ...I could be wrong but of some interest 

[TomGoodheart]

That looks to me like a genuine Aberystwyth groat that has been gilded DrL.

Possibly to try to pass off as a crown, however the IIII would surely be a real give away, even for the illiterate? (Crowns would have had V to the right of the bust to signify 5 shillings..)

[DrLarry]

gggg

40 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

That looks to me like a genuine Aberystwyth groat that has been gilded DrL.

Possibly to try to pass off as a crown, however the IIII would surely be a real give away, even for the illiterate? (Crowns would have had V to the right of the bust to signify 5 shillings..)

yes but two IIII pences seem to have been soldered together to give the weight it weighs twice the weight of one 4 pence 

Edited March 9, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

47 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

That looks to me like a genuine Aberystwyth groat that has been gilded DrL.

Possibly to try to pass off as a crown, however the IIII would surely be a real give away, even for the illiterate? (Crowns would have had V to the right of the bust to signify 5 shillings..)

I suppose you just have to wait for Mr Magoo walking past and off load it to him hoping for the best .....  

[Rob]

2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

gggg

yes but two IIII pences seem to have been soldered together to give the weight it weighs twice the weight of one 4 pence 

Not convinced about that. The nominal weight of a groat is 2.0g. Can we be sure it isn't one of those casts of genuine pieces that were done as two halves and joined to make the whole coin. A seam down the middle of the edge could be gilded to cover up the work. Making casts of small change is fraught with difficulty due to the minimal thickness of the flans, so consequently tend to be thicker than normal, which would account for the additional weight (along with the gold). 3.4g with additional gold is way too light for 2x4d.

[DrLarry]

12 hours ago, Rob said:

Not convinced about that. The nominal weight of a groat is 2.0g. Can we be sure it isn't one of those casts of genuine pieces that were done as two halves and joined to make the whole coin. A seam down the middle of the edge could be gilded to cover up the work. Making casts of small change is fraught with difficulty due to the minimal thickness of the flans, so consequently tend to be thicker than normal, which would account for the additional weight (along with the gold). 3.4g with additional gold is way too light for 2x4d.

OK I will look again I had thought they were 1.7 gms I will re-examine it 

[TomGoodheart]

14 hours ago, DrLarry said:

gggg

yes but two IIII pences seem to have been soldered together to give the weight it weighs twice the weight of one 4 pence 

Well, that very much reinforces the idea it's designed to defraud. Not sure about Rob's idea of casts. I guess Aberystwyth groats are rare, so someone could have done it to deceive, but it's a lot of work. And if you wanted a counterfeit crown, why not cast a crown in the first place. A real curiosity Larry!

[DrLarry]

30 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

Well, that very much reinforces the idea it's designed to defraud. Not sure about Rob's idea of casts. I guess Aberystwyth groats are rare, so someone could have done it to deceive, but it's a lot of work. And if you wanted a counterfeit crown, why not cast a crown in the first place. A real curiosity Larry!

yes well I will mark it as not sure then .......it does seem a lot of hard work but then I am not motivated to defraud in perhaps the same way LOL  ....I am trying to work out it a Charles II Guinea I have is authentic or not ....have you ever encountered any?   this one is off by .32 grams the edge seems a bit flat so it may have lost some of its edge perhaps as jewelry 

[DrLarry]

charles II Guinea any thoughts? it would seem a little bit of a waste of time to replicate something quite well and only shave off 0. 32 grams.  of gold 

Edited March 10, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

and then there is this little monkey which I have been advised is a fake but is gold weighing in at 5.74 grams nicely crafted and at 30mm and about 0.5 mm a gold imitation of an Elizabeth 1st half pound someone somewhere put in a lot of work to make this but the lettering gives it away 

Edited March 10, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

I suppose not strictly counterfeit but replicas made in the 19th Century were actually sold by the British Museum.  The process used by the Ready family using the technique or electrotyping.  With the discovery of electroplating came a new technique ..  we cannot really call them counterfeit but they were often sold to collectors as originals .  They in themselves are now very rare and command high prices .  They were after all made for research and are of the highest quality or workmanship.  I thought I would include them for interest.  the first is an alexander tetradrachm of Lysimachus weighing 14.9 gm verses the 17 gms of the original .  The second is Alexander in elephant headdress with a reverse of a striding Athena 13.50 gms. the third  with Hercules on the reverse killing the Nemean Lion 9 gms   

Electrotyping involves taking a mould of the item being copied, then placing the mould in an electrolytic solution, so that a thin layer of copper is deposited to the desired thickness. A coin or medal required the preparation of two electrotypes, which would then be joined around a base metal blank to form an accurate copy of the original; this would then be coated with a thin layer of metal such as gold, silver or copper to replicate the original. The Readys would typically (although not invariably) stamp the edge of the electrotype with initials to indicate it was a copy; they variously used 'RR', 'R' or 'MB'. Weighing a copy and the original was sometimes the only way to differentiate them, if an initial had not been stamped on the copy.

I have three made in the 19th C by the family employed by the BM  The Ready Family  they are stamped with their typical BM or TR  stamp one on the edge the other on the face.  The weight is exactly the same the original and they are impossible to distinguish 

[DrLarry]

 19 th C electrotype by One of the Ready Family 

Edited March 10, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

#2 

Edited March 10, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

#3 this one is marked TR on the edge 

Edited March 10, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

Sometimes I think the copies of the period leading up to the the great re-coining are more rare than the the real thing I have  only William III shillings and once I have a William III half crown but similar in Charles II also exist and I am hope some of you will list yours if you have them.  For me they make me feel close to Newton who when appointed Master of the Mint set out to reduce the counterfeiting of coins.  These early milled coins were supposed to have prevented it by having a turned edge which was reeded to prevent clipping.  But I sure the method was rapidly learnt and copies like these were traded.   To be honest they just sound WRONG...they have a typical thud of lead rather than that clink of silver .  On one the edge is badly reeded the other clonker is nicely done 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

The Coin Act of 1696 and Later in 1741 made it treason to have the machinery for coining a worst way to die I am sure than the felony of exchanging false coin knowingly  6 months imprisonment you could do this twice then get a longer sentence and if you kept going you would be hung.  The Jails must have been packed full.   

This copper tin blank shows the core of the shilling was made then silvered a tiny fragment remains its weight=s 3.6 gms  .  It is in the colonies where the greatest number of copies of William third small coppers  results in a lot  of the circulating coin in the Americas are counterfeit.  

Edited March 11, 2023 by DrLarry