F38 having 2 different obverse dies

[just.me]

Looking the 2 examples of my F38 1862 mules, although low grade, I had noted that the 2 obverse’s were from different dies. On one, the V in VIC is close to the linear circle, while on the other it is noticeably further away from the circle. I checked the specimens pictured on Richards site and both types are there to be seen in better condition. 

[just.me]

Here’s the reverses, files were too big to add to original post. 

[terrysoldpennies]

Your right , but they also have different reverses , as they both have a different date width .  The first has the 2 over the tooth [12 tooth width] , the other its positioned over the gap between the teeth and narrower [11.5 tooth]  .

[secret santa]

I'll add your coin pics to my website. Would you like me to credit you by name ?

[just.me]

7 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'll add your coin pics to my website. Would you like me to credit you by name ?

 Thanks, just AT would be preferred again please.

Edited June 11, 2022 by just.me

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Just for the record,

Satin (John Jerrams), in his reference guide, acknowledges 2 die pairings for the S-38 (F-38).

[secret santa]

I can only find a mention of an 1862 penny on page 31 which he describes as "as for Number 38" with 2 struck over 1, and which "should be included as Satin 38A", but none of the 1862 2 over 1 examples that I've seen are the F38 die pairing. I'm not sure that John is correct here.

Or have I missed something ?

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

52 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I can only find a mention of an 1862 penny on page 31 which he describes as "as for Number 38" with 2 struck over 1, and which "should be included as Satin 38A", but none of the 1862 2 over 1 examples that I've seen are the F38 die pairing. I'm not sure that John is correct here.

Or have I missed something ?

I don't have the book with me right now, but I'm referring to the S-38 (F-38) obverse 2, reverse g.  Throughout the book, he lists (current information at the time it was published), known specimens,  known die pairings, finest known, estimated values, etc.

When I get home I'll try to post an image.

[secret santa]

I don't think that he goes into the number of die pairings found for any given variety but I'm willing to be proved wrong.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I don't think that he goes into the number of die pairings found for any given variety but I'm willing to be

wrong.

I forgot I had a scan of Satin on my phone.

 

[secret santa]

Ah yes, I hadn't recalled that or even seen it when looking through it last night - I bow to your superior knowledge, Gary 😡

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

10 hours ago, secret santa said:

Ah yes, I hadn't recalled that or even seen it when looking through it last night - I bow to your superior knowledge, Gary 😡

Don't necessarily blame yourself Richard. I was using what I believe to be the 3rd and final edition from 2003.  I don't know what edition that you have. I don't think that particular information was in the earlier editions from 1999 and 2001. At least I looked fast in the 2001 edition but couldn't find it. Of course it was late and I was tired, so I could have missed it.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[just.me]

Nice one Gary 👍 It must be an earlier version I have a photocopy of, I can’t recall that info page. Most of my coins and books are stored away so I can’t check. 

[Mr T]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:15 AM, terrysoldpennies said:

Your right , but they also have different reverses , as they both have a different date width .  The first has the 2 over the tooth [12 tooth width] , the other its positioned over the gap between the teeth and narrower [11.5 tooth]  .

I'm a bit confused - 2+G, 3+G and 6+G are the known die pairings for 1862 right? Reverse G obviously has a number of different date spacings, but the obverses don't vary do they?

[terrysoldpennies]

This was a little while back , so as I remember it, It was about the 1862  2+G only, and it showed that there were at leased two reverse G dies used with the obverse 2 die [ It could be that only one obverse die was used , and retooled to give a new outer circle line ] .      With such a rare combination  [ 2+G ] it was likely that only one reverse die would have been used in combination with die 2 , but this date variation shows that there were indeed two dies used .

[Rob]

If a die was used until deemed unsuitable and if only the faulty die was exchanged, it stands to reason that more than one die will be known paired with a specific die. A good job really, as the pairings observed give useful information for the chronology, and in the case of a simple series can demonstrate the order of die use from start to finish. 

[Mr T]

Ah understood - thanks.