1935 UK Farthing conundrum HELP!

[Debono]

Greetings from Western Australia all.

I have an interesting 1935 Farthing with a concave on the reverse and convex on the obverse. It has been in a box with other coins for at least 42 years (when Grandad passed and Dad bought back to Australia)and probably many years longer. First instinct is to think PMD. Then the process of working out how? Someone said that probably used as a wedge under a table or something heavy to balance it and this has happened over many years. Sounds reasonable but then if used to balance then not much weight on it. They hit the coin dead centre and no damage to the coin at all apart from the doming. Physics says to me that the harder object wins so even with a heavy weight what ever was touching the coin would either submit to the pressure or the Britannia would submit to damage before the coin would dome? The Royal Mint Museum has confirmed the below. So whilst no certain proof, it allows for the possibility of a minting error. However my thoughts are that even though there were only 2.2m or so 1935 Farthings minted surely if a mint error, there would be more than one and I am yet to find any reports anywhere of such. So anyone that has any 1935 Farthings could they please check for domes and let me know? I have had the coin checked by a dealer who confirmed no apparent damage to the Britannia reverse. Would love to hear from anyone that has seen or possesses any such coin/s and any ideas on how the dome could have been formed post minting?

"I have now had chance to share the images you have kindly provided with our Information and Research Manager, and we have compared it with those coins the Museum has in the collection and has encountered previously.

It is possible that the appearance you describe might be a result of the size and scale of the George V portrait of coins of this era. The nature of a large and high relief portrait is that it can, when struck, draw too great a portion of material from the reverse of the coin. This issue was a particular concern for the George V portrait on the penny, and in 1933 experiments were undertaken to try and produce a lower-relief, smaller portrait, to eliminate a ‘ghosting’ effect which had been observed on the reverse of some strikes. It may be the case that this same problem has resulted in a very slight concave/convex effect on your farthing, although it is unfortunately very difficult for us to say with any certainty, and particularly from photographs alone"

[Mr T]

My inclination is to say deliberate damage but that's more gut feel, because I'm not sure how it could have happened during normal production.

I think dies were made to be slightly concave/convex (I don't remember the exact reason) but certainly not to that extreme.

[Debono]

Thanks for the reply Mr T. I agree because that seems the more obvious explanation. Except how can the coin dent (dome) with out damaging the Britannia on the reverse? I am hoping someone with experience can provide a plausible reason how this can happen. Also that damage would have to have occurred more than 42 years ago so for what purpose? Accidental damage would appear possibly more likely but then I am still left with the problem of how could it happen, deliberately or accidentally? I wonder whether there are any tests that can be done to determine such things? I have reached out to Colin from About Farthings to see if he has ever come across such things however no response as yet. Thanks again for the reply. 

[copper123]

Pretty sure its post mint damage , how its happened can just be speculated on, there are millions of 20th cent coins with many different types of post mint damage  most on ebay for daft  prices

[Debono]

Thanks copper. At this stage I am up for speculation on how the coin can dome without damage to the surface. This is the most logical probability but I am at a loss to work out how? It would have happened well over 50 years ago.

[Debono]

C'mon coin guru's! Help me out please!

How can a coin be damaged like this post strike without damaging the Brittania?

Can anyone show any examples of such an occurrence?

[jelida]

I often use a hardwood punch (piece of dowel) with a hammer to straighten coins I find metal detecting, and use a hardwood block with recesses of various sizes ( drilled using bits from 1/4 inch to 1 inch approx) to accommodate the un-evenness of the coin so I can work on a small area at a time. It is not difficult to imagine that a farthing, placed centrally over a recess so that it is supported by its edges, and then given a sharp tap or two using said punch might end up domed, without sustaining damage. The hardwood punch leaves no mark on my coins, even if annealed.

I would say though that it is very difficult to strike a domed coin from flat dies.

Jerry

[Debono]

Thanks Jerry. Why would you do that? You alter the coin you found (with a bulge?) to manipulate it for what purpose?

and why would anyone over 50 years ago do that to destroy a coin?

 

So you disagree with this?

Reciprocally Deformed Convexo-Concavo Dies

Definition: This rare error occurs when one die face sinks in and the other bulges out in a complementary fashion.  The effect can affect the center of the die face or the edge of the die face.  The affect can be global (affecting the entire die face) or local.

[jelida]

5 hours ago, Debono said:

So you disagree with this?

Reciprocally Deformed Convexo-Concavo Dies

Definition: This rare error occurs when one die face sinks in and the other bulges out in a complementary fashion.  The effect can affect the center of the die face or the edge of the die face.  The affect can be global (affecting the entire die face) or local.

Yes,  at least with the solid blocks of steel the Royal Mint historically used as dies, and to the degree shown on your coin. As to why, we shall never know without evidence. But people certainly do strange things to coins, for fun, as test- pieces, to re-purpose, to defraud , as art-work and as puzzles and many others.

And the need to restore a coin bent or damaged due to agricultural activity often presents,  in practice many detector found coins benefit from careful conservation to be acceptable to collectors.

Jerry

[copper123]

10 minutes ago, jelida said:

Yes,  at least with the solid blocks of steel the Royal Mint historically used as dies, and to the degree shown on your coin. As to why, we shall never know without evidence. But people certainly do strange things to coins, for fun, as test- pieces, to re-purpose, to defraud , as art-work and as puzzles and many others.

And the need to restore a coin bent or damaged due to agricultural activity often presents,  in practice many detector found coins benefit from careful conservation to be acceptable to collectors.

Jerry

Few coins found with a detector are worth much more than scrap value - a few hoards over the year are always mind blowingly brilliant - but most single coins are in pretty dire straights

[Diaconis]

 

1 hour ago, copper123 said:

- but most single coins are in pretty dire straights

...money for nothing

[copper123]

And the chips for free

[Peckris 2]

It is almost certainly the strike and not post-mint damage. It's hard to tell from your pictures, but convex / concave farthhings are not unknown, especially given the size of the coin.

[Debono]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

"Money for nothing and the chips for free" 🤣

You guys are hilarious!

Peckris, I have searched and searched but yet to find another coin let alone farthing like this. If anyone can show one or point me in the right direction I would be most grateful. If anyone knows of somewhere/someone I can send the coin to to be verified one way or the other that would be amazing. I have emails with The Royal Museum and they unfortunately don't believe they can make such a call either way even with the coin in hand so I am at a bit of a loss with some thinking it happened at strike and some post strike. Just not sure how to prove either way. I still am yet to find a way I believe is plausible for post strike damage (with no offence to Jerry).

[Diaconis]

8 hours ago, copper123 said:

And the chips for free

it had to be either you or Blakey😂

[blakeyboy]

I'm sorry, I was busy and forgot to check the posting.

I'm sorry I let everybody down.

Thank you, Copper123, for stepping in and saving the situation!

[jelida]

This topic includes some interesting comments and link. 
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/concave-convex-20-s-lincoln.273028/

 

Jerry

[Debono]

I read that Previously Jerry. Noted that it is 7 years old and emailed with Mike direct. He believes that the fact that it would 'rock' points to PMD although can't speculate how it could have happened. The fact that it has happened with the half dollar at least to me indicates that it is possible and no one yet has come up with a way to prove it can't happen or come up with a definitive way of PMD to cause this effect.

[blakeyboy]

I have some wooden tools I've made for straightening aluminium panels on recording consoles.

If you got a lump of hardwood with a depression in it, on a solid surface, and you put the coin on that,

and you took a piece of round hardwood , like the end of a broom handle, and whacked it, you would get a near-perfect dished coin with no marks

on the surfaces whatsoever....

[jelida]

As to whether this effect can be created post mint, I think this calls for some practical experimentation. As Blake says, I doubt the effect would be difficult to create. But as to whether it can happen in the strike -  well, that would depend on one solid steel die becoming concave, and it’s matching die becoming convex - both significantly so- and without any ‘stretching effect’ on the design, despite the distances around the curved surfaces having become greater. It is a puzzle, and unless a mint can come up with examples of appropriately deformed dies, I an doubtful we will have a definitive answer, just supposition.

If I find the opportunity to do some experimentation, I will report back. But even then nothing would be proven with regard to your coin.

But I could flatten it for you if needed. 🤭

Jerry

[Debono]

HaHa! @ Jerry! 🤣

@blake. My coin is not domed as such. As you can see in the photos (although maybe not that clear) is that is has a centre bulge that is concave/convex. It doesn't dome to the outer rim. Perhaps if it were like a hardwood steak with a point no more than a mm or 2 wide and was truck? I have no idea what would happen but maybe it would bulge? Why anyone would do that though with a farthing all those years ago would remain a mystery but would love to see if it would replicate the 'ding' (bulge). Being such a low mintage coin (the lowest Farthing I think?) it is sad that what is unknown, pretty much makes the coin worthless. Makes for a good topic of discussion though and I still hope some other coins of similar 'damage' can surface.

[copper123]

Just checked up on the lyrics and guess what for the last forty years I thought chicks were chips .

WHAT A PLONKER as del boy whould have said.

"That ain't workin', that's the way you do it
Get your money for nothin', get your chicks for free
We got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliveries
We got to move these refrigerators, we gotta move these color TVs"

Mind you "We will rock you does also sound like freddie is kicking a cat all over the place" not a can" worthy of a west ham player

And that devil has a sideboard in bohemian rhapsody as well

[Peckris 2]

@copper123

I don't suppose you remember Loving You Has Made Me Bananas, a 1978 hit for Guy Marks?

For decades, I thought the lyric was

Oh your red scarf matches your eyes / You close your cover before striking / Your father had to shit for the blues / Loving you has made me bananas

Turns out it is "Your father had the shipfitter blues"

@Debono

I really can't see anything wrong with your farthing. It could be that the strike has exaggerated the profile (not uncommon with Geo V) and therefore sucked more metal away from the reverse than usual? But face on it looks normal, and so does the shot of it resting on a surface. The picture with the blue ruler is a bit weird but the blue reflection doesn't help.

[Debono]

@Peckris. Hopefully this pic shows the 'bump' more clearly. It is concave on the reverse and convex on the obverse.

[Peckris 2]

Ah yes, that's much more exaggerated than normal. However, I still think it's the strike not post-Mint.