WHICH MORON DID THIS?

[Rob]

Here we have an object lesson in what not to do with a coin, which  seriously p's me off makes me livid.

First of all we have a pleasantly toned coin, a P2103 (dies 2+A) struck in silver with extensive rust spots to neck that had a decent provenance:

T Bliss 653c, Sotheby 16/5/1916
V M Brand
E M H Norweb 646, SCA 48 13/11/1985 P PAS 11.34g
SCA 207 23/3/2011, lot 700 P
DNW 183 lot 184, 8/4/2020 P

NOW DIPPED and identifiable only by the tiny rim marks. Someone should be ashamed of themselves. Better still, if you want to play with dipping solution then use the change in your pocket. How to destroy value in one deft dip - take something that oozes character and can be chased back through previous catalogue images with provenance given and then transform it into a featureless landscape. There was no mention of the Norweb envelope in the DNW catalogue, so that's probably lost along with the provenance too. I despair.

 

Two cheers for knocking a third off the value. £900 hammer for something that would go for in excess of 1500 all in under current market conditions is not a good result.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Rob

[Rob]

Edit to add, it sold for £1400 hammer in 2011, so someone might just have learned something.

[1949threepence]

Just out of interest what's your association with the coin? Seems a bit of a random thing to suddenly pick up on and recognise the previous provenance from such relatively hidden clues. DNW gave no indication in the write up to Lot No 184.

But yes, an act of vandalism by a complete idiot is no exaggeration.

 

 

[Iannich48]

24 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Just out of interest what's your association with the coin? Seems a bit of a random thing to suddenly pick up on and recognise the previous provenance from such relatively hidden clues. DNW gave no indication in the write up to Lot No 184.

But yes, an act of vandalism by a complete idiot is no exaggeration.

 

 

I like DNW's description "Of bright appearance" The coin has certainly lost it's character.

[Rob]

1 minute ago, 1949threepence said:

Just out of interest what's your association with the coin? Seems a bit of a random thing to suddenly pick up on and recognise the previous provenance from such relatively hidden clues. DNW gave no indication in the write up to Lot No 184.

But yes, an act of vandalism by a complete idiot is no exaggeration.

 

 

As you are aware, I like provenances. To this end I have a database which I regularly expand with a view to establishing which are the best available examples of a particular type so that when I am looking to purchase an example I know with a good deal of certainty that I am unlikely to find better, or only marginally so, thus negating any further upgrade. Patterns lend themselves to this because they are relatively few in number, so Moore patterns for example have between 100 and 150 known for all types which makes it an easy series to analyse.

This coin being one of 4 examples of P2103 I have traced had the best provenance by a country mile, going back to less than 30 years after it was struck. This was due to Norweb recording the provenance she obtained from Brand, who did the same. Prior to the last 20 or 30 years it was normal for these never to be illustrated or assigned a provenance, usually being made up into bulk lots with similar types if there was more than one example in a collection, so any provenance is a bonus.

So in answer, no it wasn't random. By doing due diligence, it should be possible for me to get an example of the four states of the laureate obverse die, each coupled with a different example of the four reverses (any combo will do), each in a different metal (silver, gilt, white metal and bronzed), which in conjunction with the coronet head P2135 which is only in copper will therefore provide a complete potted history of Moore's pattern pennies (excluding models). The only thing to add to this will be the tin uniface in my possession which was done from an unfinished reworked die that was previously the P2135 obverse, but which disintegrated. It suits my eclectic collecting habits.

The description by Peck for this series also sits at odds with the evidence on the coins, so I am in the process of rewriting this section with a view to an article.

[secret santa]

34 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Just out of interest what's your association with the coin? Seems a bit of a random thing to suddenly pick up on and recognise the previous provenance from such relatively hidden clues. DNW gave no indication in the write up to Lot No 184.

But yes, an act of vandalism by a complete idiot is no exaggeration.

As there was no provenance listed in the DNW sale, it's possible that the vendor did not supply any. He/she may not have had any. It's possible that they came by it by accident, by inheritance, by dishonest means, etc etc. If it were in the state pictured above, a non-numismatist would probably be pleased to clean it up to the shiny state and get over a thousand pounds for it. So, not necessarily an idiot per se but who knows ?

[oldcopper]

1 hour ago, Iannich48 said:

I like DNW's description "Of bright appearance" The coin has certainly lost it's character.

I think that's DNW'ese for "cleaned". I agree with Rob it's sacriligeous and it's very annoying, especially when a really nice coin is tampered with and ruined this way. Sadly, it may well get slabbed at good grade now. A similar example happened to me recently, where the vendors took a wonderful coin (an 18th century copper proof) and tried to "improve it" before re-slabbing it, which meant it ended up looking like something out of a Christmas cracker (once you knew it had been treated). Idiots, and I was the mug who fell for it. Luckily I got my money back on re-selling it soon after. Not one to keep.

Here's one of my "favourites", mainly due to the over-the-top write up from Goldbergs. It's from the Cheshire Collection (still on the web). "Maybe Queen Victoria herself saved this little darling" is how they put it. Well, she'd have had to have been about 185 years old to appreciate the colour as I owned this coin up to a couple of years before this sale, and it was a dullish orange colour then! Ex SNC 2001 with a black and white photo. Talk about Christmas Cracker again......

Edited November 26, 2020 by oldcopper

[copper123]

I am constantly surprised by the high prices on ebay fetched by cleaned coins - in my opinion they are worth 1/3 of what a decent uncleaned coin is worth.

[blakeyboy]

Remind me- who is the US idiot who heat treats all coins so they have a 'rainbow'??

They sell loads to idiots!

[copper123]

1 hour ago, blakeyboy said:

Remind me- who is the US idiot who heat treats all coins so they have a 'rainbow'??

They sell loads to idiots!

Bungle the bear and geofery might like them (Remember rainbow!)

[copper123]

That pattern penny must be one of the best paterns ever issued for 1860 joseph moore was such a tallent , it must have gone quite close and have been seriously considered as a private pattern - the above silver coin had a lovely tone on it why anyone would want to dip it I just don't know.

[Bernie]

17 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Remind me- who is the US idiot who heat treats all coins so they have a 'rainbow'??

They sell loads to idiots!

I second that !

I just hope that the coins that I have been waiting for to turn up do not come into their possession. Also this company do like to make rather large profits !