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Meant to say I got this 1909 dot penny a few months back, and completely forgot about it.

Just £4.64 off e bay. I know they're not that rare, but this one is about VF, and the price was a bargain.

 

  

dot 1909 rev crop 2.jpg

dot 1909 obv crop 2.jpg

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Tidy that Mike, nice find.

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6 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

Tidy that Mike, nice find.

Cheers John.

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Posted (edited)

Now managed to locate an 1858 small date not over a 6 and not large rose - the daily obsessive scrolling through the 1858's, has finally paid off. I know this variety is quite rare.

I took a chance with the buy, as the seller's picture did look as though there might be something between the loops on the left hand side of the 8, but it was tiny and not really like an 8/6. Minute examination under a powerful lighted loupe today, shows that it's definitely small 5 and definitely not over anything.

    

ball date 1858 one double cropped.jpg

ball date 1858 two cropped.jpg

Edited by 1949threepence
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On 4/12/2021 at 10:45 PM, 1949threepence said:

Meant to say I got this 1909 dot penny a few months back, and completely forgot about it.

Just £4.64 off e bay. I know they're not that rare, but this one is about VF, and the price was a bargain.

 

  

dot 1909 rev crop 2.jpg

dot 1909 obv crop 2.jpg

It wasn't a type I had , so had a quick look on ebay for newly listed buy it nows . There was 2 within the first dozen . One quite worn , but the other was better , but not as nice as yours .Less than a fiver ,so not a hard decision .

Image 1 - 1909 Edward VII Penny Good toned detail SNo59026

 

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5 hours ago, mick1271 said:

It wasn't a type I had , so had a quick look on ebay for newly listed buy it nows . There was 2 within the first dozen . One quite worn , but the other was better , but not as nice as yours .Less than a fiver ,so not a hard decision .

Image 1 - 1909 Edward VII Penny Good toned detail SNo59026

 

Absolutely Mick.

It's not that rare a variety. Gee has then at 1 in every 48 of 1909 pennies. 

Compare and contrast with the Freeman 169, which Court estimated to be 1 in every 846 of 1909 pennies.  

 

 

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31 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Absolutely Mick.

It's not that rare a variety. Gee has then at 1 in every 48 of 1909 pennies. 

Compare and contrast with the Freeman 169, which Court estimated to be 1 in every 846 of 1909 pennies.  

 

 

Who's Gee please Mike?

F169 now known to be approximately one in every 6 million as far as I can tell. :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

Who's Gee please Mike?

F169 now known to be approximately one in every 6 million as far as I can tell. :rolleyes:

F.W.K.Gee was a contributor to Coin Monthly in the early days. He wrote an article on Edward VIII pennies in the October 1969 edition. Then he wrote articles on the same topic in the August, September, October, November and December 1971 editions. A five part series.

They were very detailed and informative articles, Jon. No idea what the "F W K" stood for though. 

With regard to the F169, I've never seen one on offer except at auction. I suspect there are one or two more, but difficult to tell as the border teeth are too worn to determine whether the 1 of the date is directly over a border tooth. Funnily enough in the November article, there is an interesting piece on how to determine whether a 169 is a 169 when the border teeth are too worn to otherwise tell. Bit late tonight as I'm practically falling asleep at the keyboard. But I'll dig out that specific article tomorrow, and post the details here.     

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

F.W.K.Gee was a contributor to Coin Monthly in the early days. He wrote an article on Edward VIII pennies in the October 1969 edition. Then he wrote articles on the same topic in the August, September, October, November and December 1971 editions. A five part series.

They were very detailed and informative articles, Jon. No idea what the "F W K" stood for though. 

With regard to the F169, I've never seen one on offer except at auction. I suspect there are one or two more, but difficult to tell as the border teeth are too worn to determine whether the 1 of the date is directly over a border tooth. Funnily enough in the November article, there is an interesting piece on how to determine whether a 169 is a 169 when the border teeth are too worn to otherwise tell. Bit late tonight as I'm practically falling asleep at the keyboard. But I'll dig out that specific article tomorrow, and post the details here.     

Unless I am misremembering, I vaguely recall reading something about an alternative method of identifying an F-169. Regretfully I do not have any way of determining my original source of that information.

I believe that it might have had something to do with the position of one of the N's in PENNY.  Unfortunately, in many instances, if the date was too worn to determine the position of the 1, the same situation existed for the lettering in PENNY.

As I stated in the beginning, I might be merely misremembering, simply incorrect, or just delusional...

Edited by Bronze & Copper Collector

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6 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Unless I am misremembering, I vaguely recall reading something about an alternative method of identifying an F-169. Regretfully I do not have any way of determining my original source of that information.

I believe that it might have had something to do with the position of one of the N's in PENNY.  Unfortunately, in many instances, if the date was too worn to determine the position of the 1, the same situation existed for the lettering in PENNY.

As I stated in the beginning, I might be merely misremembering, simply incorrect, or just delusional...

Not that, although that may, of course, be something else we need to know about.

Rather than re-typing all the words, here's a photo of the relevant part of the article - from Coin Monthly, November 1971:-

 

 

freeman 169 article.jpg

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3 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Not that, although that may, of course, be something else we need to know about.

Rather than re-typing all the words, here's a photo of the relevant part of the article - from Coin Monthly, November 1971:-

 

 

freeman 169 article.jpg

That’s very useful thanks Mike.

Jerry

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Having a look on Richards site . The hand on rev D has more pronounced knuckles on the front , rev E it seems to be more of a straight line . Also the r/h/s trident prong on D points to a gap , but on E it points to a tooth .The hand difference would probably be noticeable on coins with more wear ,but if you can't tell whether the 1 points to a tooth , it is doubtful you could work out where the trident is pointing .

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Not that, although that may, of course, be something else we need to know about.

Rather than re-typing all the words, here's a photo of the relevant part of the article - from Coin Monthly, November 1971:-

 

 

freeman 169 article.jpg

 

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Brilliant, thanks Mike. :)

 

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11 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Unless I am misremembering, I vaguely recall reading something about an alternative method of identifying an F-169. Regretfully I do not have any way of determining my original source of that information.

I believe that it might have had something to do with the position of one of the N's in PENNY.  Unfortunately, in many instances, if the date was too worn to determine the position of the 1, the same situation existed for the lettering in PENNY.

As I stated in the beginning, I might be merely misremembering, simply incorrect, or just delusional...

The N in ONE Gary ,both of the uprights is to a gap and another indicator ?

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Not a huge difference in Britannia's fist, in my view.

874242186_1909F168revzoom.jpg.b517fdbcc0d75e191c40012668bd5927.jpg1313180073_1910F170revzoom.jpg.4a416aa494eb184f1b7bb51db98c5543.jpg

Reverse D on left; reverse E on right. The major difference in the fist appears to me to be the heel of the thumb which looks much fatter on rev D, but this needs verifying on more specimens.

Alternatively, the trident prongs and the upright of the P meet the border teeth in slightly different places.

305691035_1909F168revzoom-Copy(2).jpg.72b07f2c56bad77abc01be3e92f38671.jpg1838241107_1910F170revzoom-Copy(2).jpg.71cef164b63e521b5cea892991d6a6f6.jpg

Reverse D on left; reverse E on right with 4 teeth clearly visible between the white line and the right hand trident prong.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Not a huge difference in Britannia's fist, in my view.

874242186_1909F168revzoom.jpg.b517fdbcc0d75e191c40012668bd5927.jpg1313180073_1910F170revzoom.jpg.4a416aa494eb184f1b7bb51db98c5543.jpg

Reverse D on left; reverse E on right. The major difference in the fist appears to me to be the heel of the thumb which looks much fatter on rev D, but this needs verifying on more specimens.

Alternatively, the trident prongs and the upright of the P meet the border teeth in slightly different places.

305691035_1909F168revzoom-Copy(2).jpg.72b07f2c56bad77abc01be3e92f38671.jpg1838241107_1910F170revzoom-Copy(2).jpg.71cef164b63e521b5cea892991d6a6f6.jpg

Reverse D on left; reverse E on right with 4 teeth clearly visible between the white line and the right hand trident prong.

I must admit, when actually comparing the two, I wasn't hit in the eye by any differences. So with regard to worn specimens, I don't think we're any further forward, and still fairly reliant on border teeth. The helmet plume differences are also very subtle.

ETA: having said that, if it was one of those "spot the difference" type exercises, I would have circled the thumb. The thumb on reverse D looks slightly more emphatically pressed in, that the one on reverse E. But that wouldn't be much help on worn specimens. 

Edited by 1949threepence

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Edward VIII pennies ?

I thought only about 4 exist

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8 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Edward VIII pennies ?

I thought only about 4 exist

"I was wondering who'd be the first to spot that Wilson" (as Captain Mainwaring used to say) 

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I feel more like baldrick on here .LOL.

Much kicked about and abused , sorry make that manuel

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On the subject of edward VIII coins can anyone confirm that when Edward asked for one of the four sets he was turned down by the royal mint , that must have felt like a right smack in the face .

George V would have gone spare if he was turned down .

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Posted (edited)

Even on a fairly well worn specimen the thinner heel of the thumb and the 4 teeth to the right of the trident are still visible. Additionally, reverse D has 2 clear teeth between the central and right hand trident prongs whereas reverse E has just a single clear tooth midway between the prongs.

1671154907_1910F170revzoom-Copy(2).jpg.5c18214d0a51e3f2145db4fa86943421.jpg39397739_1909F169revzoom2.jpg.d49c389c5eb4937fe978384c6ca1a419.jpg

Edited by secret santa
clarification
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3 hours ago, secret santa said:

Even on a fairly well worn specimen the thinner heel of the thumb and the 4 teeth to the right of the trident are still visible. Additionally, reverse D has 2 clear teeth between the central and right hand trident prongs whereas reverse E has just a single clear tooth midway between the prongs.

1671154907_1910F170revzoom-Copy(2).jpg.5c18214d0a51e3f2145db4fa86943421.jpg39397739_1909F169revzoom2.jpg.d49c389c5eb4937fe978384c6ca1a419.jpg

Very useful info Richard. Thanks.

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19 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

F.W.K.Gee was a contributor to Coin Monthly in the early days. He wrote an article on Edward VIII pennies in the October 1969 edition. Then he wrote articles on the same topic in the August, September, October, November and December 1971 editions. A five part series.

They were very detailed and informative articles, Jon. No idea what the "F W K" stood for though. 

With regard to the F169, I've never seen one on offer except at auction. I suspect there are one or two more, but difficult to tell as the border teeth are too worn to determine whether the 1 of the date is directly over a border tooth. Funnily enough in the November article, there is an interesting piece on how to determine whether a 169 is a 169 when the border teeth are too worn to otherwise tell. Bit late tonight as I'm practically falling asleep at the keyboard. But I'll dig out that specific article tomorrow, and post the details here.     

Although looking at Richard's rarest penny site, one did go on e bay in February this year. A very decent specimen too, as 169's go.   

Wish I'd seen it. I've been trying to find what it went for, but no luck.   

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Although looking at Richard's rarest penny site, one did go on e bay in February this year. A very decent specimen too, as 169's go.   

Wish I'd seen it. I've been trying to find what it went for, but no luck.   

£440 .Decent example

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COIN-UNITED-KINGDOM-ONE-PENNY-BRITANNIA-EDWARD-Vll-BRONZE-1909-/154328988309?hash=item23eeb97a95%3Ag%3ARxkAAOSwagJgJqJA&nma=true&si=zGNhOPeEfsB5VMffTHlQjngAylU%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Edited by mick1271
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