1858 Penny - large vs small date

[secret santa]

I still have some difficulty distinguishing between 1858 large and small date pennies. Even all the examples on Michael's Gouby website ( http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp_1858.htm) don't make it absolutely clear. He only mentions the small date once as CP1858E and gives no guidance other than Smaller numerals '5 & 8's'. 

It appears from his pictures that the key distinguishing feature of the smaller date seems to be that the bottom of the 5 is left of the larger bead on the smaller date (see picture from his website below) but pretty much directly over the larger bead on the larger date. The actual date numerals themselves seem to me to vary in size and distance apart throughout the range of varieties.

 However, I have also seen what appear to be small date specimens with the 5 over the left side of the large bead - see below.

Can anyone offer me a foolproof way of distinguishing between the large and small date ?

Also, I have previously assumed that all 1858 overdates are the large date variety, but is this true ? My 1858 over 6 looks like a small date to me.

[Rob]

Is it absolutely clear whether small/large date refers specifically to date with or numeral size, as the definition appears to vary from issue to issue? i.e small date might imply the numerals are used on a smaller denomination, but you also have situations where the date width determines the attribution. A third possibility would be a slightly different font resulting in numeral height/width differences.

[secret santa]

18 minutes ago, Rob said:

Is it absolutely clear whether small/large date refers specifically to date with or numeral size, as the definition appears to vary from issue to issue? i.e small date might imply the numerals are used on a smaller denomination, but you also have situations where the date width determines the attribution. A third possibility would be a slightly different font resulting in numeral height/width differences.

My question explicitly refers to 1858 copper pennies and how to tell which a particular variety is in hand without needing to compare it to either photographs or other coins.

[Chingford]

With CP1858, I usually go by the 8's, when looking at full dates as the size differences are very obvious.

But as Rob quoted there are several alignments to be taken into account, the width and height at which each individual number is cut can seem by eye to look larger or smaller even though the same font has been used

[Rob]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

My question explicitly refers to 1858 copper pennies and how to tell which a particular variety is in hand without needing to compare it to either photographs or other coins.

Looking at Gouby's site, the only obvious things to me at first glance is the top bar of the 5 which is thicker on the end, and the 8 is sharper, from a different punch. The 8/6 looks to be using the same 5.

[secret santa]

I agree that the 5s look very different:

Large date                             small date

If this is consistent, it does seem a an easy and foolproof means of distinguishing between the 2 dates.

What about my second question regarding overdates ? Both my 1858 over 6 specimens appear to be small dates. Does anyone know whether 1858 overdates occur on both large and small dates ?

[Rob]

The only one I have had in recent times is this, which I think came from LCA. I had one 15 years ago, but wasn't good enough grade to keep the picture.

[secret santa]

Having potentially cracked the issue regarding 1858 pennies, I have taken a look at my 1859 large and small date pennies to see if the same "rule" applies. Certainly, the examples on Michael's website indicate that the same differences in the 5 apply to 1859 pennies. I then checked my own examples and found that all my 1859 pennies, including my really nice small date, have the same figure 5, i.e. that of the wide date format. Fortunately one of my 2 spare small date pennies has the appropriate 5.

I  then checked the LCA archives and found a few 1859 pennies misdescribed as it isn't always obvious what's a large or small date. Obviously I'm not the only person who's found it confusing !

[secret santa]

And, as Peck says, 1857 pennies are found with small dates (similar to 1858 & 1859).

Large date & Small date

[RLC35]

20 hours ago, secret santa said:

And, as Peck says, 1857 pennies are found with small dates (similar to 1858 & 1859).

Large date & Small date

 

The 1857 "long" 7 is also struck with a triple 7 (CP1857FA)  

[secret santa]

yes, indeed - there are many other variations associated with these copper penny dates but there does seem to be genuine confusion over the large and small date. You only have to look through LCA archives, for example, to find large date coins described as small date because the numbers are slightly closer together, for example. My earlier comments about the style of the 5 seems to be a reliable guide.

 

[Peckris 2]

It's no wonder there are so many varieties for 1858. It was intended to be the final year for copper pennies and therefore the reuse of older dies made perfect sense - it was only the drastic delays caused by the problems with bronze that put the changeover  back at least 18 months.

[secret santa]

I have just realised/discovered that 1856 PT pennies have large dates and 1856 OT pennies have small dates - how strange !

[1949threepence]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:24 PM, Peckris 2 said:

It's no wonder there are so many varieties for 1858. It was intended to be the final year for copper pennies and therefore the reuse of older dies made perfect sense - it was only the drastic delays caused by the problems with bronze that put the changeover  back at least 18 months.

There are (seemingly) endless variations in the pre 1860 Victoria pennies. 

[alfnail]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:05 PM, secret santa said:

I agree that the 5s look very different:

Large date                             small date

If this is consistent, it does seem a an easy and foolproof means of distinguishing between the 2 dates.

What about my second question regarding overdates ? Both my 1858 over 6 specimens appear to be small dates. Does anyone know whether 1858 overdates occur on both large and small dates ?

The different styles of 5 in my experience is a consistent method of distinguishing between 1858 Small Date numerals (Gouby C and Gouby E) and the Large Date numerals found on all other date styles recorded by Gouby.

In my opinion it is better to think of this difference rather than looking at date widths as there are many minor variations of date widths found on both the small 5 and large 5 numeral font types...………... the attached picture (same magnification on each image) illustrates.

[alfnail]

….and pictures (140x) showing height of small 5 and large 5 for coins in top and bottom picture above 

[Peckris 2]

12 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

There are (seemingly) endless variations in the pre 1860 Victoria pennies. 

True enough - but the number for 1858 seems to dwarf any other date.

[1949threepence]

7 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

True enough - but the number for 1858 seems to dwarf any other date.

Absolutely. Starting with the number of numbers the last 8 can be over ! 

[alfnail]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 5:42 PM, secret santa said:

Having potentially cracked the issue regarding 1858 pennies, I have taken a look at my 1859 large and small date pennies to see if the same "rule" applies. Certainly, the examples on Michael's website indicate that the same differences in the 5 apply to 1859 pennies. I then checked my own examples and found that all my 1859 pennies, including my really nice small date, have the same figure 5, i.e. that of the wide date format. Fortunately one of my 2 spare small date pennies has the appropriate 5.

I  then checked the LCA archives and found a few 1859 pennies misdescribed as it isn't always obvious what's a large or small date. Obviously I'm not the only person who's found it confusing !

There is additionally a type of 1859 date style which is not currently recorded on Gouby's website. It has the same style numeral 5 as the small date (Gouby B, your right picture), but has yet another (3rd) font type for the numeral 9. I sometimes refer to this as the 1859 'Narrow' Date style, for what it's worth!

My experience is that both these 'small' and 'narrow' date varieties have been struck from single die pairings, so only one date width is ever found for each of these two numeral types. This is not true of the larger numeral type of 1859 (Gouby A's) where so far I have recorded 6 different date types.

Note that whilst the obverse of the  'Small Date' is clearly different from the 'Narrow Date' this is not true of the reverse dies for these two types, which have the same die flaws!! In my opinion the 'Small Date' obverse was first paired with this reverse die, and then the same reverse die was subsequently used with the 'Narrow Date' obverse...………...with these reverse flaws becoming even more extended, but commencing in the same locations!!

 

  

[secret santa]

Excellent. Thanks Ian for corroborating, and adding to, my observations with empirical evidence. Really useful.

[alfnail]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 2:07 PM, secret santa said:

yes, indeed - there are many other variations associated with these copper penny dates but there does seem to be genuine confusion over the large and small date. You only have to look through LCA archives, for example, to find large date coins described as small date because the numbers are slightly closer together, for example. My earlier comments about the style of the 5 seems to be a reliable guide.

 

I think you have ‘hit the nail on the head’ with this comment Richard.

If I was ever to attempt to re-categorise the Young Head penny series I think I would steer away from using date widths, and as far as date varieties are concerned would concentrate instead on the different numeral font types. If date widths are used then where do you draw the line in your collection, because ‘in my experience’ every die has numerals in slightly different positions?

Using the above Long numeral 7 as an example, which only represents less than 10% of the entire 1857 population, I have found 5 different obverse dies, all with slightly different positions for the 57. In fact without the use of a digital microscope you would be hard pushed to know they were all struck from different dies………….fortunately they all have die flaws in different locations which makes life easier.  

[alfnail]

….so for example these would be the date 'font' differences you would seek for your 1851 collection, instead of the numerous date width variations.

 

[alfnail]

Not trying to tell everyone what to collect, just my own thoughts!

[secret santa]

Yes, Ian, I think that the font differences are infinitely more interesting than the different widths. In my own collection, whenever I obtained a better specimen of a particular variety, I would sometimes find a small difference in the date positions and use it as an excuse to keep both specimens ! It's the hoarder in me !!!