Henry VII Groat without Mintmark

[Paddy]

One of the metal detectors I meet in the market has asked me about this coin. I believe it is S2254 "Tentative issue" Groat without mintmarks.

Am I right?

I have not seen it in hand yet - these pics from the enquirer. Can anyone see any indicators towards it being a forgery? Does anyone know of any forgeries of this coin turning up?

 

[Coinery]

I’ve had a couple of pewter groats from his reign, will look them out.

[Coinery]

[Coinery]

[Coinery]

I think the bust and crown punches are likely from the same die-maker as this genuine one. The OP coin could be a contemporary c’feit though, looking at the copper showing through? Difficult from photos.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Coinery

[Paddy]

Thanks for all that @Coinery - that helps a lot. I had not particularly noted the red areas where copper may be showing through, so I will take special note of these when I see it.

As most of you know, I am not very good at IDing hammered but I like to be prepared when I know someone is going to bring me some. I suspect he will want to sell me some or all of what he has, so I need to be careful I am not taken for a ride!

[Rob]

The OP coin's obverse legend ends in RA, not F, FR or FRA. That would be wrong.

[Paddy]

8 hours ago, Rob said:

The OP coin's obverse legend ends in RA, not F, FR or FRA. That would be wrong.

Thanks for that Rob. Does that mean you think it is a fake or a contemporary counterfeit?

I think I can see part of the F before the RA - the foot and the lower bar. Could this just be wear or a filled die?

[azda]

17 hours ago, Paddy said:

One of the metal detectors I meet in the market has asked me about this coin. I believe it is S2254 "Tentative issue" Groat without mintmarks.

Am I right?

I have not seen it in hand yet - these pics from the enquirer. Can anyone see any indicators towards it being a forgery? Does anyone know of any forgeries of this coin turning up?

 

looks a forgery to me, the OBV bust doesn't look right and the lettering looks too neat

[Rob]

You need to weigh it and look at it alongside a known good piece. Unfortunately I only have one with initial marks both sides. There is a bit of leeway in the bust position looking at the number of dies employed and there are quite a few punches used. The F is probably blocked or not struck up in the first place as it coincides with the ghosting of the reverse cross.

[Paddy]

Thanks both! I hope to get to see it finally on Wednesday, so I will have a better idea then. He says he has a bunch of other hammered coins he has found, so there may be others of interest.

I will report back.

 

[Coinery]

I’m no expert on these things, but with only the most basic of searches I’d say the punches stand up. As Rob says, and I agree, the F in FRA is clogged or weak. I’m genuinely surprised at the variety of dies and diversity of punches for a singular and well-known ‘type.’ The copper streak concerns me...but would make me think contemporary forgery, rather than modern fake, and I’m not convinced it’s either. In-hand assessment and weight will be the biggie here! Really interesting coin.

[Paddy]

Sadly the guy with this coin couldn't make it today - hopefully next Wednesday.

 

[Paddy]

I got to see this coin today. The "copper" streak was rust from the environment in which it had been found - a little light work with a finger nail removed it completely. The coin appeared genuine to me, the colour being darker and more evenly toned than the pictures suggested. Weight was 2.91g.

Does that change anyone's opinion?

[Coinery]

Weight is pretty well spot on. From the pictures I can’t put it down to be honest. I think the obverse looks a little odd, but I wonder whether that’s only the bust punches being a little bit positional. It could be nothing more ominous than the crown being high...it’s much lower on the head of the other coin posted, which would transform the entire aesthetic.

 

[Paddy]

Is not the difference two different coins in Spink? The my OP ones is S2254, whereas the one @Coinery posted looks to be S2258? From the pics in Spink that seems to match the difference in the crown position, although they make more point about the number of bands on the crown...

 

[Coinery]

Maybe? The picture I posted was to demonstrate the punches used, nothing more. There are a large number of dies and punches for these profile groats. I didn’t look in Spink or any book, I thought we were trying to establish whether it was legit or not, not classify it?  

[Paddy]

2 minutes ago, Coinery said:

Maybe? The picture I posted was to demonstrate the punches used, nothing more. There are a large number of dies and punches for these profile groats. I didn’t look in Spink or any book, I thought we were trying to establish whether it was legit or not, not classify it?  

OK - I agree with the aim! Just the comment on the angle of the crown - compared to your picture it is higher at the back, but that seems right for the S2254, at least as presented in Spink.

I think I can see nothing wrong with the coin. The more difficult question is should I be buying it, and if so, for how much? 🙂 I would like to have it, but I already have a reasonable Henry VII in my monarch run, so it is not an urgent need. But there again - it is a lovely example!

 

[copper123]

24 minutes ago, Paddy said:

OK - I agree with the aim! Just the comment on the angle of the crown - compared to your picture it is higher at the back, but that seems right for the S2254, at least as presented in Spink.

I think I can see nothing wrong with the coin. The more difficult question is should I be buying it, and if so, for how much? 🙂 I would like to have it, but I already have a reasonable Henry VII in my monarch run, so it is not an urgent need. But there again - it is a lovely example!

 

I agree , many are oftem found clipped and this coin has missed that dubious pleasure

[Coinery]

What I was trying to say was the entire bust could sit higher up on the coin, rather than the crown dropping off the beading, which would make the coin look a little less unusual in appearance, if you know what I mean? I think it’s the unusual configuration that made me and others feel cautious but, as I said, the punches look good, and it would only be a repositioning of the devices that would make it look far more conventional anyway. Caveat emptor  

 

[Rob]

Plenty of dies exist for the tentative issue, and a shedload more for the 3 band crown. The height of the bust varies. There are 27 tentatives in SCBI 23 (Henry VII coins in the Ashmolean), and a total of 115 profile groats of both types.

[Coinery]

45 minutes ago, Rob said:

Plenty of dies exist for the tentative issue, and a shedload more for the 3 band crown. The height of the bust varies. There are 27 tentatives in SCBI 23 (Henry VII coins in the Ashmolean), and a total of 115 profile groats of both types.

Phenomenal! I can barely imagine these numbers existing for any other other denomination type.

[Rob]

Not 115 individual dies, but coins. Some dies are shared, and no, I'm not going to work out the exact number. In any case I know the list is not exhaustive.

[Coinery]

25 minutes ago, Rob said:

Not 115 individual dies, but coins. Some dies are shared, and no, I'm not going to work out the exact number. In any case I know the list is not exhaustive.

Ah, I see...it’s still a lot, though, it’s fair to say? Even a simple google image search throws up a pile of coins where the challenge would actually be in trying to find 2 dies the same.

[Rob]

Guaranteed to be a lot of dies.

Potter & Winstanley note 16 obverse dies for no mark, lis and Greyhound's Head, but give up when it comes to Cross Crosslet. For what it is worth, they list 7 dies each for no mark and Lis, plus another 2 for Greyhound's Head. Crosslet is much more common. As far as the reverses go, you can reasonably expect a minimum of twice the number of obverse dies. Greyhound's Head being the rarest and hence the simplest case, the sylloge has an example of dies 15/16 (nearly identical) plus 3 GH reverses from 2 dies including muled marks. Add to that my GH rev. (below) plus another not in the Ashmolean gives a total of 4 GH rev. dies I know for certain. You are unlikely to be looking at more than another one or two reverses, if they do indeed exist.

A back of the fag packet calculation assuming 1:2 obv:rev gives a total of 50 or so rare mark dies for both sides, plus a guesstimate of say 100 crosslets would give a total of 150ish tentative dies for all marks. If someone wants to do the survey, then we can plumb in the numbers and obtain a more precise estimate of the number of dies.