Freeman 10 inverted V for A - does it exist?

[jelida]

I was looking through Santa’s “heads ‘n tails” site earlier and the “ inverted V for A in Victoria “ obverse Freeman 10 caught my eye. As Santa asks, does it exist? As a true variety, I think not. Certainly F10 pennies with an absent bar to the A do exist, but I feel it is highly likely they simply represent die fill for the following reason.

The working dies used to strike coins of a particular design can be used in their hundreds depending on die longevity and coin demand,  and will  themselves each be struck from the master die. The master die includes the lettering on the coin, though not necessarily all the digits. Master dies can last years preparing many hundreds of working dies depending on demand. Freeman obverse 2 exhibited mal-alignment of the letters in BRITT,  a master die or hub issue transferred to many working dies. Look how long the Freeman obverse 6 master with the flawed colon after D:G: lasted-  years!  The point I am making is that an obverse 2 working die could not have been made with an absent A unless that featured on the master, which is unlikely. Therefore there would be no need to erroneously enter the A on the working die using an inverted V punch,  the bar of the A can only disappear through die fill, and an absent bar cannot be taken as evidence of use of a V punch any more than the absent bar of the E in an ONF penny implies use of an F punch. Both these are spurious varieties.

The majority of the true minor varieties that we see are are the result of something added rather than something absent, re-engraving of design or erroneous letter or number repair while trying  to prolong die life. Or indeed sometimes deliberate overstrikes to the date for re-use in later years.

Opinions please!

Jerry

[terrysoldpennies]

I found that second example of the V over an A quiet recently, and then contacted Richard about it.  I said to him that it looks to me as though the coin originally had been made with an A correctly in place , but I guess had then deteriorated with the bar across the  A  filling , though not completely, being still just about visible .  it looks then as though a repair was made, but not using an  A , instead an inverted  V.  My reason for thinking this is that the inner edges of the  A / V are clean and crisp , and not in any way ragged at the point where the bar across the  A  meets the two down strokes.   I also sent Richard a picture of a similar  A / V , but from a different die, which I found on LCA, this coin shows the ragged edges at the point where the bar joins the inner sides of the A.  Now it is impossible to be sure that its a V over A , but that's is what it looks like to me.    Terry 

[jelida]

Do you have some decent microscope close-ups of the A, Terry?  Richards  example does have a definite slight indentation on the left arm of the A where the crossbar should join, suggesting perhaps a slight bulge in the material impacted in the bar, though it is very difficult to be certain either way from these photos. I don’t think I’d be convinced except by examining a high grade coin. Even then it is suggested (see Gouby) that repairs to letters often used partial punches such as an L punch to repair the base of an E, are these varieties too? They may be interesting curiosities, but to me this is an example where we should be wary of conferring varietal status without clear evidence.

Jerry

[terrysoldpennies]

The coin is worn so until a better example is found we will not know for sure.  Richards site tends to show a quiet low grade picture , below are two higher grade pictures.

 

[terrysoldpennies]

[PWA 1967]

Can you not get rid of the crap in the middle Terry as that may help.

Its not going to look any worse with having a big scratch below 🙂

[jelida]

Thanks, Terry. I think the jury is out until a high grade example is found. But would I pay decent money for it.........?

No.

Jerry

 

[secret santa]

It's good that we can still find things to discuss - I love it !

[Peckris 2]

9 hours ago, jelida said:

 As Santa asks, does it exist?

But, does Santa exist? 

[terrysoldpennies]

6 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

But, does Santa exist?

That's a secret !!!!

[jelida]

20 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

But, does Santa exist? 

I’ve had some nice presents from him in the past. Well not absolute presents, but very fair prices. Thank you Santa!

Jerry

[secret santa]

Continuing with this speculation, I recently bought a penny on Ebay advertised as a possible inverted V but which, on close inspection, had a very clear and sharp but thin bar to the A, especially when viewed at an angle. I was going to send it back because of this but then spent more time looking at it. In my view, the crossbar of the A is too clear and sharp for it to be the result of a partially filled die. In fact it reminded me of the residual date figures that have been overpunched, e.g F30 6 over 8 where the remains of the 8 are thin and sharp (see bottom picture). Could it be possible that someone set out to repair the A of VICTORIA on a working die (we know that specimens of F10 clearly show other attempts to repair the A - see right hand picture) on a die where the crossbar seemed to be strong enough for the repairer to use an inverted V punch to strengthen the legs, resulting in a thin residual crossbar ? The bar is hardly visible in the photo below but is clear and sharp at an angle under a magnifier and the left leg shows signs of repair (left hand picture).

  

I'll leave it others to comment.

 

 

[terrysoldpennies]

I would agree with your assessment Richard , and to add to that, if another A had been used it would probably leave a doubled bar across the A .  This would not be the case if as we surmise an inverted V was used.    I think we might be winding Jerry up again , but to me this is all very interesting to work out just how some of these type were formed.   

[jelida]

12 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

   I think we might be winding Jerry up again , but to me this is all very interesting to work out just how some of these type were formed.   

Not at all, Terry 😇, it just goes back to what I said before,  these are simply appropriate die repairs, equivalent of the use of an ‘L’ in repairing an ‘E’ or an ‘I’ in repairing a ‘T’ as shown in Gouby without specific varietal status, and not, as some would have, an ‘inverted V for A’. Not that it is impossible these exist, just that most supposed examples are demonstrably not, as the one above. While I do also gather these interesting die repairs in my collection I don’t consider them a true variety........yet.  Perhaps a general consensus as to their varietal status would persuade me regarding these ‘alternative letter punch ‘ repairs.

Jerry

[terrysoldpennies]

I know what you mean Jerry , with Victorian Pennies there really are thousands of different minor variations and we couldn't possibly classify all of them as varieties , but like you if a cheep unusual example comes my way, i do go for it, oh and i Promise not to try and sell you one for big money  

Edited June 26, 2019 by terrysoldpennies