When is a "mule" not a "mule" ?

[secret santa]

11 hours ago, JimShillingford said:

Taking that view the Jersey penny won't be a mule. 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[JimShillingford]

20 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Oh c'mon......we'll need to see the obverse before we can arrive at a consensus as to mule status or otherwise........

OK, I'll get me coat 

  

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[JimShillingford]

PCGS think it is a Proof, which it is but is it not more pattern than proof?

[Mr T]

16 hours ago, secret santa said:

Can a pattern also be a mule.........?

I would have said yes - I thought I read that some threepence patterns were produced with third farthing obverse dies. Possibly that was a genuine test but at the same time it's a mule pairing.

[Rob]

35 minutes ago, JimShillingford said:

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Do the TPGs have a facility for patterns? All those I have seen are given PR prefixes whether pattern or proof.

[Peckris 2]

17 hours ago, Rob said:

No by definition, because a pattern is an unadopted design and can be a combination of any dies. A mule can only be produced from an obsolete and therefore superseded die (with the caveat of how ongoing changeovers are treated) in combination with a current die or dies that are completely unrelated, but somehow were paired. Crucially the dies already have to be or have been current.

Good point ... but didn't Taylor do some pattern restrikes that were mules in the sense that he paired obverse and reverse dies had never before been paired?

[Rob]

10 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Good point ... but didn't Taylor do some pattern restrikes that were mules in the sense that he paired obverse and reverse dies had never before been paired?

Yes, but they were never from die pairs that had both circulated. Taylor did a few restrikes using one current die, e.g the 1807 proof halfpenny reverse, but the other one of the pair was modified to provide a 'variety'.  In the case of the 1807 proof 1/2d obverse die it was the broken jewel 1806 1/2d die last used for the KH35 bronzed proof halfpenny P1365. Other types are known to be modified.

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Good point ... but didn't Taylor do some pattern restrikes that were mules in the sense that he paired obverse and reverse dies had never before been paired?

Wouldn't those be better categorized as Fantasy pieces....

[Rob]

14 minutes ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Wouldn't those be better categorized as Fantasy pieces....

Call them what you will. As a private company, everything produced by Boulton & Watt or Taylor with the exception of the commissioned output could be described thus.

[Peckris 2]

18 minutes ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Wouldn't those be better categorized as Fantasy pieces....

 

2 minutes ago, Rob said:

Call them what you will. As a private company, everything produced by Boulton & Watt or Taylor with the exception of the commissioned output could be described thus.

Now we're really getting into murky waters! Weren't some tokens (i.e. what we would call 'trade tokens') actually produced specifically for collectors or as pieces not meant to be used for trade? Those could also be called Fantasy pieces.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

I suppose anything NOT issued by the mint, or issued WITHOUT official mint authorization could be considered a fantasy piece, although several such striking have entered the mainstream and/or become legendary. ....

Thinking USA, the 1913 Liberty Nickel for one, was  never an official striking..

Edited August 23, 2018 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Rob]

Many patterns could be described as fantasy pieces, with designs that tend to be more intricate with finer detail, which is not helpful when it comes to striking a 100K coins from a die pair.  Currency coinage production requires a simplified design that won't clog up.

It's much easier to let sleeping dogs lie and say each to their own, coz you sure as hell won't come to any agreement.

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 minute ago, Rob said:

Many patterns could be described as fantasy pieces, with designs that tend to be more intricate with finer detail, which is not helpful when it comes to striking a 100K coins from a die pair.  Currency coinage production requires a simplified design that won't clog up.

It's much easier to let sleeping dogs lie and say each to their own, coz you sure as hell won't come to any agreement.

 

Amen To that.....

A Rose is a Rose is a Rose.....  by any name....

[Peckris 2]

Just now, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Amen To that.....

A Rose is a Rose is a Rose.....  by any name....

"Your perfume's smelling sweeter, since when I saw you down on the dance floor..." 

 

[secret santa]

On 8/22/2018 at 7:43 PM, Rob said:

A mule can only be produced from an obsolete and therefore superseded die

I don't think I agree with this - the 1966 Jersey obversed penny ( a quintessential mule in my view) has what I assume (what was still) a current Jersey obverse (tho' I may be wrong)

[Rob]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I don't think I agree with this - the 1966 Jersey obversed penny ( a quintessential mule in my view) has what I assume (what was still) a current Jersey obverse (tho' I may be wrong)

I didn't explain myself very well, or even at all, there. I was talking about cases where a currency die had been superseded but then reinstated, such as the Anne third bust which was replaced after 1709 by the fourth bust, introduced the following year. However, the reappearance of the third bust on a 1711 shilling was clearly anachronistic, and quite surprising given the output of 1711 shillings. Patterns are a free for all when it comes to die combinations, with many being unique or nearly so and in my view difficult to view as something that shouldn't have happened, or certainly not in advance of their intended normal use.

You are of course quite correct in treating the Jersey obverse penny mule as such because this one is just plain wrong. It may however have its roots in a trial as I discussed with Graham Dyer three or four months ago and posted on this forum.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I don't think I agree with this - the 1966 Jersey obversed penny ( a quintessential mule in my view) has what I assume (what was still) a current Jersey obverse (tho' I may be wrong)

What about the 1967 New Zealand 2c Bahama Islands 5c Mule???

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Or the recent USA dollar coins with the 25 cent obverse???

[Madness]

When is a mule not a mule?  When it's a little hoarse.  

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Very true, read definition 1......

 

mule1/myo͞ol/
noun

 1.   the offspring of a donkey and a horse (strictly, a male donkey and a female horse), typically sterile and used as a beast of burden.
 2.   a hybrid plant or animal, especially a sterile one.
 3.   a kind of spinning machine producing yarn on spindles, invented by Samuel Crompton (1753–1827) in 1779.
  4.   a coin with the obverse and reverse of designs not originally intended to be used together.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Swinging On A Star Lyrics

Would you like to swing on a star?
Carry moonbeams home in a jar?
And be better off than you are?
Or would you rather be a mule?

A mule is an animal with long, funny ears
He kicks up at anything he hears
His back is brawny and his brain is weak
He's just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
And, by the way, if you hate to go to school
You may grow up to be a mule

Or would you like to swing on a star?
Carry moonbeams home in a jar?
And be better off than you are?
Or would you rather be a pig?

A pig is an animal with dirt on his face
His shoes are a terrible disgrace
He's got no manners when he eats his food
He's fat and lazy and extremely rude
But if you don't care a feather or a fig
You may grow up to be a pig

[instrumental-first 3 lines of chorus]
Or would you rather be a fish?

A fish won't do anything but swim in a brook
He can't write his name or read a book
To fool all the people is his only thought
Though he's slippery, he still gets caught
But then if that sort of life is what you wish
You may grow up to be a fish

And all the monkeys aren't in a zoo
Every day you meet quite a few
So you see, it's all up to you
You can be better than you are

You could be swingin' on a star

[Madness]

I'm a mule

[copper123]

Mules are stubborn  but not as stubborn as humans see above for details of how stubborn humans are ! They even argue over mules

[secret santa]

Little Eva and Big Dee Irwin - definitely an unplanned pairing.

[1949threepence]

5 hours ago, Madness said:

I'm a mule

We all are....

Let's be honest, in the absence of an overriding definition accepted by all, there's never going to be full consensus on this issue, so, in terms of what is a mule and what isn't, to each his own.