Madness' Coin Grading Training Ground

[Madness]

I won this coin at the recent Davissons Auction.  They graded it as Good Extremely Fine, but there seems to be more wear than I would have expected from a coin in this condition.  Do you agree?  If so, has anyone tried returning a coin to them based on incorrect grade?  I have a basis for comparison in the form of an EF+ 1787 Shilling purchased from Michael Gouby, to which it doesn't compare favorably.  

 

 

I took the images above with my phone.  Here is the link to the Davissons listing:

https://davcoin.com/lot/e-auction-26-lot-89

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Madness

[Madness]

Never mind.  There's a time limit of three days on claims and they don't guarantee their grading:

"Any claims, other than claims of authenticity, must be made within three days of receipt of lots. N.B. Attribution and condition are the opinion of the cataloger and no warranty is expressed or implied."

I suck at buying coins.  More practice needed I suppose.  

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Madness

[jelida]

Try and get some crisper photos, very difficult to be sure from these. But if the surfaces are genuinely as described by the auctioneer, he may well be right. Throughout this thread, as Rob alludes to in an earlier post, some of these variations are in the die and strike, ie we are grading the die rather than the coin. The Davissons photos suggest a nice coin, but I do agree some of your other illustrations show coins with a little more detail. It comes down to experience with the coin in the hand, and I feel that a continuation of the protected field surface over the raised elements of the design is a massive clue in terms of lustre, sheen, texture, colour, indicating whether the coin has actually had much handling. Some of the early twentieth century bronzes that I collect have minimal remaining fine detail yet full original lustre. The combination of a crisp early strike and lack of circulation can be elusive - and attracts a premium even for a relatively common coin.

Jerry

[Madness]

On 9/23/2018 at 10:14 PM, jelida said:

Try and get some crisper photos, very difficult to be sure from these. But if the surfaces are genuinely as described by the auctioneer, he may well be right. Throughout this thread, as Rob alludes to in an earlier post, some of these variations are in the die and strike, ie we are grading the die rather than the coin. The Davissons photos suggest a nice coin, but I do agree some of your other illustrations show coins with a little more detail. It comes down to experience with the coin in the hand, and I feel that a continuation of the protected field surface over the raised elements of the design is a massive clue in terms of lustre, sheen, texture, colour, indicating whether the coin has actually had much handling. Some of the early twentieth century bronzes that I collect have minimal remaining fine detail yet full original lustre. The combination of a crisp early strike and lack of circulation can be elusive - and attracts a premium even for a relatively common coin.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry

I think I'm part way to learning to differentiate between die flaws/wear/deterioration and con wear.  I'm working off the following assumptions:

1. Generally, if there is coin wear, it will exist on at least three points of the face.  Just a stool needs at least three legs to stand, so a coin will rest on a level surface on its three highest points.

2. Coin wear will result in a flattening of the surfaces when coming into abrasive contact with a surface

3. Wear will affect the coin's toning/lustre on the points of abrasion, although I imagine time could ameliorate some of the differences between the original surface and worn surfaces 

Please correct these assumptions as I'm just putting my ideas out there.  

On the obverse face of this coin there are small flattened surfaces on four curls, some drapery, the edges of two laurel leaves and the extra metal extruded from a die crack.  These places have a lustre that's brighter than the surfaces in other areas, the same lustre, in fact, as the area affected by the coin adjustment.  I assume that these pieces of evidence work together to indicate these are points of coin wear.  

Yes. the coin lacks some crispness and details that I'm seeing on a number of coins, which I attribute to die wear.  But there's also coin wear in my opinion.  This is why I question the grading.  The bright lustre described by the auctioneer corresponds in location to the adjustment marks and I'm assuming that these two features are somehow related.  

Sorry, but I'm incapable of taking better pictures.  You'll have to teach me how!

[Madness]

My guestimate: Extremely Fine

 

Is the lustre "natural" or do you think it's been dipped?

[Peckris 2]

 Just on the picture alone, I'd say that was as near Unc as you're going to find on those coins. (Can't see evidence of dipping.)

[Madness]

5 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

 Just on the picture alone, I'd say that was as near Unc as you're going to find on those coins. (Can't see evidence of dipping.)

Would you grade it, then, as "almost practically as struck"?

[Peckris 2]

7 minutes ago, Madness said:

Would you grade it, then, as "almost practically as struck"?

I would (after eliminating the tautology of "almost practically"!)  based purely on the photograph. Seeing the coin in hand I might vary that, but not by much.

[Madness]

You don't like unnecessary tautologies?

 

 

[Madness]

Yep.  Not happy with the 1787 Shilling I bought from Davissons, so have listed it for sale on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1787-Shilling-with-Hearts-George-III-Proclamation-Coin-Good-Extremely-Fine/263960640253

Do you think my description is fair, not a cop out and not misleading?  Regardless of the grade, I'd like a semee-of-hearts variety to match the quality of the no-stop-over-head variety I already own.  This one isn't it, despite the quality of lustre.  Will just have to cut my losses.  

In the meantime I'll put the money realised from the sale towards 1787 sixpence/s for my die study.  

Edited September 27, 2018 by Madness

[Peckris 2]

11 hours ago, Madness said:

Yep.  Not happy with the 1787 Shilling I bought from Davissons, so have listed it for sale on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1787-Shilling-with-Hearts-George-III-Proclamation-Coin-Good-Extremely-Fine/263960640253

Do you think my description is fair, not a cop out and not misleading?  Regardless of the grade, I'd like a semee-of-hearts variety to match the quality of the no-stop-over-head variety I already own.  This one isn't it, despite the quality of lustre.  Will just have to cut my losses.  

Very fair. Tbh, if it was mine I wouldn't rush to sell it, but we're all different (thank goodness).

[Rob]

18 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Very fair. Tbh, if it was mine I wouldn't rush to sell it, but we're all different (thank goodness).

I would second that. If you keep a few bad purchases, then they are in your face and a constant reminder to be careful when buying. Consider it a reference collection, just as you would assemble a rogues gallery of any copies you come across.

[Madness]

If I were to win a slabbed MS-65 coin at auction, would it be madness to remove it from its slab?  The OCD lunatic within me cries out to put it into a quadrum like all my other coins.  

[Madness]

On 9/28/2018 at 7:59 AM, Rob said:

I would second that. If you keep a few bad purchases, then they are in your face and a constant reminder to be careful when buying. Consider it a reference collection, just as you would assemble a rogues gallery of any copies you come across.

This coin will be sticking around.  Calmer heads than mine have prevailed.  After all, I will be getting to a 1787 shilling die study and it would be a shame to rob myself of resources that will come in handy then.  

[Rob]

1 hour ago, Madness said:

If I were to win a slabbed MS-65 coin at auction, would it be madness to remove it from its slab?  The OCD lunatic within me cries out to put it into a quadrum like all my other coins.  

Without knowing you future intentions, there's no right or wrong answer. If you have bought it for the grade number with a view to selling it in the future as you think prices are going to increase, then it is clearly an investment decision and taking it out of the slab shouldn't come into it. If you are collecting as opposed to investing, then it is entirely up to you.

I have removed many 65 & 66 graded coins from the slab to put the coins in my cabinet, some the 'finest known'. i.e The biggest number on the slab to date from that TPG. As this number doesn't translate across TPGs and in any case is not necessarily reproducible even if the same coin is submitted twice to the same TPG, I don't get too tied up agonising about removing them from the plastic. For me the question is whether the coin is an integral part of the collection, and if so, it has to fit in the tray - something slabs manifestly don't. It's horses for courses as we have discussed many times.

[Madness]

Thanks Rob.   Will remove from the slab in the event I'm successful.  I'm a collector, not an investor.  

[Sword]

8 hours ago, Madness said:

Thanks Rob.   Will remove from the slab in the event I'm successful.  I'm a collector, not an investor.  

I think you need to know what you are doing when buying a slabbed MS65 coin. A PCGS or NGC MS65 often has premium attached and can be expensive. (That’s my reason for avoiding buying slabbed coins in the UK). It is a moot point whether one should crack open a PCGS / NGC MS65 slab. If the coin has been somewhat over graded or not particularly attractive in the first place, then one should not have pay over the odds initially. Cracking such a slab would would mean less money when you eventually sell it on. I personally won’t crack open an PCGS / NGC MS65 slab unless there is good reason to. I fully understand that advanced collectors might want to crack open slabs to store in cabinets with the rest of their collection. Then again, they would only have paid what the coin and not the slab was worth. 

[Madness]

Never mind

Edited October 13, 2018 by Madness

[Madness]

On 10/13/2018 at 7:18 PM, Madness said:

If I were to win a slabbed MS-65 coin at auction, would it be madness to remove it from its slab?  The OCD lunatic within me cries out to put it into a quadrum like all my other coins.  

Moot point now.  I have, unsurprisingly, been outbid.  

[craigy]

what are the pock marks on a lot of the obverse sides of these coins 

 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, craigy said:

what are the pock marks on a lot of the obverse sides of these coins 

 

Haymarking. Probably flecks of oxidised copper from insufficiently mixed metal. Copper is the metal usually added to get the correct silver fineness. Copper (II) oxide is black.

[craigy]

50 minutes ago, Rob said:

Haymarking. Probably flecks of oxidised copper from insufficiently mixed metal. Copper is the metal usually added to get the correct silver fineness. Copper (II) oxide is black.

seems to only affect the obverse on these coins, 

[Rob]

9 minutes ago, craigy said:

seems to only affect the obverse on these coins, 

It affects both sides, but tends to be more obvious on the obverse because there is a greater expanse of flat areas and less clutter in the design. Here's one with it on both sides. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Rob

[craigy]

in some instances it makes the coin look plated in photos, 

[Madness]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:30 AM, Madness said:

Moot point now.  I have, unsurprisingly, been outbid.  

With one final roll of the dice I put in a bid below estimate and won the auction for the MS-65 1787 Sixpence.  Comparison of the coin to my database shows it to probably be a HS27 with a weakish strike that obscures the seventh string.  

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-DO12Z

Unfortunately Stacks Bowers' invoice includes unexpected items such as a wire fee, insurance and an exorbitant shipping charge.  My winning bid was $280 USD.  The final price with all fees included is an eye-watering $431.50 USD.  Wouldn't have bid if I knew it would cost this much but I'm committed now.  

In short, I'm unable to pay them immediately.  Has anyone dealt with them recently?  Are they harsh on defaulters?  Is there any possibility of working out a payment plan with them?

Thanks!

Edited October 18, 2018 by Madness