frosted proof

[craigy]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/George-VI-Silver-Crown-1937-Coronation-Frosted-VIP-Proof-Crown-S4079-FDC-PR65Cam-/172878995156?hash=item2840641ed4:g:hsgAAOSwHtFZxMop

 

 

????  have 2 of these crowns frosted like this, do i need to get them slabbed or is the seller a bit optimistic 

[PWA 1967]

Says on his description only six VIP ones known .....you have two 

Is his a VIP proof ?.

How do you tell the difference in a 1937 VIP proof and a normal proof ?.

 

[jaggy]

6 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Says on his description only six VIP ones known .....you have two 

Is his a VIP proof ?.

How do you tell the difference in a 1937 VIP proof and a normal proof ?.

 

I ran the certificate number through the PCGS verification and it gives a population of 25.

NB. that is just PCGS and doesn't cover NGC, LCGS, other TPGs or raw.

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/84917969

If it is a VIP proof then he will need to provide some evidence because the certification doesn't show that.

Edited October 6, 2017 by jaggy

[PWA 1967]

So its not a VIP one as described in the sellers description and is just a normal £50 one ?.

Edited October 6, 2017 by PWA 1967

[jaggy]

2 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

So its not a VIP one as described in the sellers description and is just a normal £20 one ?.

I don't know. I don't know the difference between 'normal' and 'VIP'. However, If I were having a VIP Crown slabbed, I would want that in the description because it would seriously enhance the value.

[PWA 1967]

1 minute ago, jaggy said:

I don't know. I don't know the difference between 'normal' and 'VIP'. However, If I were having a VIP Crown slabbed, I would want that in the description because it would seriously enhance the value.

Yes thats what confuses me Jaggy as not got a clue about them 

[PWA 1967]

Can anyone help ,is the one for sale a VIP ?

If yes or no how do you tell the difference please ?.

[VickySilver]

As it turns out, I have learned a few things over the years. This 1937 date, as well as the 1951 and 1953 Crowns come in "regular", "cameo", "deep cameo", and ??VIP Proof.

I think that some received special treatment - aka VIP - at the mint, but at least as far as I can tell (and Steve Hill might back me up on this) there is no essential difference that someone could divide VIP and deep cameo (or even some plain old cameo).

I am not at all  sure that the TPGs are able to distinguish, and in the case of the Wreath Crowns IMO are not able to figure out what is proof and what is not. Even though I believe that I can generally tell, I will say there are some quite borderline cases that are tough calls.

 

My suggestion: Don't get your panties in a bunch & lump the DCs in with the VIPs, provided you can agree they are DCs. THe coin in the OP should be about 500 USD and not more - about a year ago I bought a PCGS 65DC as well as the English REv shilling of that date for that in total.

I also have a graded 64DC that is IMO superior to the graded 65DC, so please judge the coin in hand as best you can...

 

[PWA 1967]

Thank you.

If you ,Steve hill and the TPGs cant tell the difference in the 1937 Crown (VIP) i am glad i dont want to buy one 

[jaggy]

1 minute ago, PWA 1967 said:

Thank you.

If you ,Steve hill and the TPGs cant tell the difference in the 1937 Crown (VIP) i am glad i dont want to buy one 

And certainly not at that price. 

[DaveG38]

My standard Proof Set Crown looks just like this one.

[VickySilver]

Absolutely, save your money. But look for the nicer cameo specimens WITHOUT the ubiquitous hairlines in any case. I'm glad I  figured that out before I popped for the "VIP" some years ago & didn't have to learn the hard lesson.

[craigy]

this one of mine, you have seen it before,

[craigy]

this is the problem i had with ingram coins, with the 53 halfcrown, tight git stripped me up for £190 quid in the end, had no choice short of going down to southampton to get money back there was nothing i could do, although he did call the police when i said i was gonna come down and get it back, lol, sent him proof etc about what he had sold me,  but wasnt interested, very pushy dealer, not a member of the btna either if that means anything, trusted him as a dealer to price his coins according tot here rarity etc, dont think he has much knowledge in this area, i didn't but i do now, knowledge is power lol

[craigy]

1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

Absolutely, save your money. But look for the nicer cameo specimens WITHOUT the ubiquitous hairlines in any case. I'm glad I  figured that out before I popped for the "VIP" some years ago & didn't have to learn the hard lesson.

as i did with ingrams 

[craigy]

i believe the 53 vip proofs were struck in .999 silver not cupro nickel ????  and i'm sure i read somewhere  the 37 vip's were struck in .999 silver not .500 as the finesse was at that time ???

 

interesting subject, not fully understood yet maybe, i know you have the i to the dots varieties and stuff but the cameo's interest me the most 

[craigy]

2 hours ago, VickySilver said:

As it turns out, I have learned a few things over the years. This 1937 date, as well as the 1951 and 1953 Crowns come in "regular", "cameo", "deep cameo", and ??VIP Proof.

I think that some received special treatment - aka VIP - at the mint, but at least as far as I can tell (and Steve Hill might back me up on this) there is no essential difference that someone could divide VIP and deep cameo (or even some plain old cameo).

I am not at all  sure that the TPGs are able to distinguish, and in the case of the Wreath Crowns IMO are not able to figure out what is proof and what is not. Even though I believe that I can generally tell, I will say there are some quite borderline cases that are tough calls.

 

My suggestion: Don't get your panties in a bunch & lump the DCs in with the VIPs, provided you can agree they are DCs. THe coin in the OP should be about 500 USD and not more - about a year ago I bought a PCGS 65DC as well as the English REv shilling of that date for that in total.

I also have a graded 64DC that is IMO superior to the graded 65DC, so please judge the coin in hand as best you can...

 

can you show us a pic of the coins you mention ;0)   

[zookeeperz]

I think the VIP proof's are heavily frosted to the point that there is no mistake. Something like our modern commemoratives Or Canadian 1980's and 1990's. Apparently the mirror effect on VIP proofs is much more intense and all the lettering is frosted as well. Although not always the case as you can see by this 1943 VIP proof half crown. Amazingly PCGS graded it PF66. I call foul on that..

Edited October 6, 2017 by zookeeperz
adding pics

[VickySilver]

I will see what I can do later this weekend. The '37 and '52 putative VIP crowns were NOT struck in finer pure silver or even sterling standard. Unfortunately the VIP proofs are not all struck with heavy cameo effect & some "ordinary" proofs do have it. The halfcrown you have just shone is probably properly termed Specimen and is typical of these coins in the 1942-44 era - although there are noted exceptions. I have what are likely specimen coins that are not proof of 1947 and 1951 in 6d and shilling denominations.

Spencer wrote a very nice article in the J. of the ANA in about 1982 that described the process and his division schemes in some details. The Sale of the Norweb Canadian coins by Bowers and Merena 1996 also contained some discussion in the intro.....

 

PS - the evident lines in the fields of the posted 1943 half crown are die prep polish lines & not wear. Then of course you could sell it with the latter impression to me if you'd like. LOL

Edited October 6, 2017 by VickySilver

[zookeeperz]

9 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I will see what I can do later this weekend. The '37 and '52 putative VIP crowns were NOT struck in finer pure silver or even sterling standard. Unfortunately the VIP proofs are not all struck with heavy cameo effect & some "ordinary" proofs do have it. The halfcrown you have just shone is probably properly termed Specimen and is typical of these coins in the 1942-44 era - although there are noted exceptions. I have what are likely specimen coins that are not proof of 1947 and 1951 in 6d and shilling denominations.

Spencer wrote a very nice article in the J. of the ANA in about 1982 that described the process and his division schemes in some details. The Sale of the Norweb Canadian coins by Bowers and Merena 1996 also contained some discussion in the intro.....

 

PS - the evident lines in the fields of the posted 1943 half crown are die prep polish lines & not wear. Then of course you could sell it with the latter impression to me if you'd like. LOL

I bet any of today's crop of TPG's would probably details grade it for excessive hairlines lol.

[VickySilver]

Or even figure out the coin is a specimen strike.

[Unwilling Numismatist]

This is my very respectable Australian cousin.

 

[Unwilling Numismatist]

and .. (note to self, make em smaller..)

[1949threepence]

On 10/6/2017 at 10:30 PM, craigy said:

this is the problem i had with ingram coins, with the 53 halfcrown, tight git stripped me up for £190 quid in the end, had no choice short of going down to southampton to get money back there was nothing i could do, although he did call the police when i said i was gonna come down and get it back, lol, sent him proof etc about what he had sold me,  but wasnt interested, very pushy dealer, not a member of the btna either if that means anything, trusted him as a dealer to price his coins according tot here rarity etc, dont think he has much knowledge in this area, i didn't but i do now, knowledge is power lol

Which one did you deal with, Michael, or his son Rendell? Not keen on either of them. In my opinion, their stock is overpriced.  

Although I did get a nice F26 from them, about a year ago. That was a bit overpriced, but a very nice coin, so was willing to splash out on it.    

   

[craigy]

On 10/11/2017 at 9:32 PM, 1949threepence said:

Which one did you deal with, Michael, or his son Rendell? Not keen on either of them. In my opinion, their stock is overpriced.  

Although I did get a nice F26 from them, about a year ago. That was a bit overpriced, but a very nice coin, so was willing to splash out on it.    

   

i think i shouted at hem both down the phone at some point after many ignored emails lol    the stock they have and they still felt happy with fleecing me out of £190 quid, ok i should have been aware of what i was buying but i trusted them, my fault really,  they still keep sending me catalogs and emails when i asked them not too, would never buy from them again, or recommend, always something a little wrong with the coins they sell, little digs, corrosion, unsightly toning, i know a coin cannot be perfect. but you know what i mean