Sold as "GEF and lustrous " but later graded "tooled UNC details"

[Komisaruk]

I bought a fairly expensive coin through a proxy bid at a recent auction which was described as "GEF and lustrous". However when I sent it for grading and slabbing by PCGS it was returned without a numerical grade but with the description "tooled UNC details". A definition of tooled that I found with a quick google search is "smoothing of a coin's fields to remove scratches, corrosion and other forms of damage or to the restoration of lost details through use of a graver or knife".

I did not spot any obvious tooling on the photos posted on the auction website or when I received the coin, but it was picked up by the graders at PCGS. Since the coin was not given a numerical grade I expect this will have an effect on its value when I try to sell it.  How much do you think it would affect the price? Also, since the auction description has no mention that the coin has been tampered with, should I be entitled to a full refund if I reject the coin because it is not as described in the catalogue?

[PWA 1967]

I doubt you would get a refund after a few weeks and as you say you hadnt noticed it either.

I would break it out and resub mit it to auction or sell privately .

Alternatively you could just keep it 

Do you have a picture please ?.

[Rob]

It depends on whether you can return the coin to the auction house in the same condition that you received it. Auction houses will accept returns if not as described, but it might cost more to return it if you are shipping abroad as you will have to insure it for its full value. TPGs are not infallible, so it might come down to a bun fight as to who is right.

Pictures would help along with the auction details.

[Guest Biggus_Dickus]

The pictures from the auction house sale would be good to see if the tooling can be seen, if not then it might be down to the grader who knows jack at PCGS

[1949threepence]

24 minutes ago, Guest Biggus_Dickus said:

The pictures from the auction house sale would be good to see if the tooling can be seen, if not then it might be down to the grader who knows jack at PCGS

Absolutely. Do you have a link to the specific coin at the sale, Komisaruk, so we can have a look.? 

Edited December 2, 2016 by 1949threepence

[jaggy]

Step one is to decide of you agree with the PCGS evaluation. My own experience with details grading at NGC is that they invariably got it right. On the other hand, I have had a coin which was misattributed by PCGS. I broke it out of the slab and sent it to NGC who correctly attributed it.

Step two - and if you agree with the PCGS evaluation - is to contact the auction house. If their photos did not show tooling and the description did not mention it then you probably have a fairly strong case for reimbursement.

Step three - and if you disagree with PCGS - is to break the coin out of its holder and either 1) keep it raw, 2) sell it or 3) have it graded by NGC or LCGS.

Edited December 2, 2016 by jaggy

[Komisaruk]

Thanks for your comments.  This is the coin:

LCA 154 (Sept 2016) Lot 3026 - Third Guinea 1802 S.3739 GEF and lustrous

I have examined the slabbed coin with a hand lens and I don't see anything suspicious, but I'm not really sure what I should be looking for. 

What do you think?

[1949threepence]

57 minutes ago, Komisaruk said:

Thanks for your comments.  This is the coin:

LCA 154 (Sept 2016) Lot 3026 - Third Guinea 1802 S.3739 GEF and lustrous

I have examined the slabbed coin with a hand lens and I don't see anything suspicious, but I'm not really sure what I should be looking for. 

What do you think?

Lot 3026

Nothing obvious so far. 

 

[Rob]

There isn't anything that leaps out at you.

They haven't confused die polishing lines with tooling by any chance?

[Paulus]

Nothing apparent to me either, looks absolutely fine ok from those pics.

I am going to theorise / speculate - and that is all it is  - I have heard there is normally only 1 grader for the US TPGs, and they bang out many per hour. Perhaps the grader on this occasion was not used to that particular portrait of George (which I think is unique to that series) and was less than diligent?

If you want it re-slabbed, LCGS would do so without issue I imagine, as they are now owned by the auctioneers ...

Edited December 3, 2016 by Paulus

[coinkat]

Die polish should involve raised lines and should not be confused with tooling. I am not seeing anything from the image that would lead me to conclude that tooling was an issue.

This is one of those slabbed coins that is the poster child for why an explanation for a tools designation is required if it is going to be utilized.

[Guest Biggus_Dickus]

I'd agree, I'd be asking for an explaination of their designation and as Rob said, ask if they haven't confused die polishing lines for tooling

[Komisaruk]

This coin was submitted to PCGS Europe, so I guess it stayed in Paris for grading.

I will try to obtain an explanation from them for the tooling designation.

Thanks again for your wise words.

[1949threepence]

9 hours ago, Paulus said:

Nothing apparent to me either, looks absolutely fine ok from those pics.

I am going to theorise / speculate - and that is all it is  - I have heard there is normally only 1 grader for the US TPGs, and they bang out many per hour. Perhaps the grader on this occasion was not used to that particular portrait of George (which I think is unique to that series) and was less than diligent?

If you want it re-slabbed, LCGS would do so without issue I imagine, as they are now owned by the auctioneers ...

I was just thinking exactly the same thing. Way to go, perhaps.

[jaggy]

In my experience, auction pictures can flatter to deceive so it might be interesting if you took your own photos and posted them up on here. I have had four Details gradings from coins bought at LCA, mainly for hairline scratches, and which were absolutely not evident from their photos.

[Paulus]

How about PCGS' own pics, can we see those?

[rpeddie]

have to pay extra to have half decent pics of pcgs/ngc pics that would show the hairlines

[Rob]

1 hour ago, rpeddie said:

have to pay extra to have half decent pics of pcgs/ngc pics that would show the hairlines

Thanks, another caveat to consider. All pics are not what they seem to be, even from the same place.

[rpeddie]

straight $10 for pcgs and $5/15 from ngc, otherwise you get the trash pictures taken with a nokia 3310  

Edited December 3, 2016 by rpeddie

[Komisaruk]

I managed to take some pictures of the 1802 third guinea using a microscope.  I cannot show the whole coin in one image because the magnification is too great, so I have taken multiple images to cover both faces. I will try and post these in subsequent messages. If you see anything suspicious, I can take some pictures at higher magnification and play around with the lighting to investigate a particular area.

I contacted PCGS Europe and they said that the details-tooling grade was given because "It appears that around the bust area it was smoothed "

[Komisaruk]

Here are the pictures of the reverse. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Colin G.]

The base of the bust does look different in terms of tone, and surface hairlines but that may just be the images. Where does that patch correspond with on the Reverse, has it been drilled/repaired?