Circular scratches on Early Milled shilling

[Conor44]

Hi all,

https://postimg.org/image/42brl18it/

This is a coin that has been in my collection for a little over a year now, and I have been puzzled about these circular scratches on this rather nice William and Mary Shilling. They are perfect and get bigger the closer they are to the rim- its the same on the reverse. I originally thought it may be some sort of a mint error, but I am doubtful about this, as on the ebay listing (Calm down, don't worry, a well known BNTA dealer- youll probobally know who from the style of listing photograph) the scratches, although apparent in the photo, were not described at all, although the coin was incorrectly sold to me as an 'unrecorded 3 over 0' type (its 1693), which I cannot see- im not accusing the seller of foul play but it seems to me as he was trying to nab a few more quid for it, possibly to make up for the scratches? Anyway id appreciate if anyone could tell me what they are and do they affect its value? One more point to note: they weren't made yesterday as its apparent that these are old scratches,

Thanks,

Conor

[bagerap]

It's not easy to tell without a much better close up but, are these marks actual circles or a concentric spiral?

If it's a spiral, the marks could be the product of a "reducing machine", an early piece of high tech that was used to make smaller copies of medals and coins for the "commemorative" market. Sometimes also called a Reducing Pantograph.

[IanB]

Could we see the reverse. 

[IanB]

Are there any marks on the edge that might indicate that it had been gripped by something?

[Conor44]

They are individual concentric circles. I will post bigger images of front and back when I get home later on

[Coinery]

Yes, these massively affect the value of the coin. Massively!

Also, in all honesty, if I'd been selling this coin, I don't think I would've thought it necessary to mention such a glaring issue in the description?

Can we have a close up of the overdate?

[Coinery]

A bit of further reading for you!

 

[Coinery]

13 minutes ago, Coinery said:

A bit of further reading for you!

 

I'm personally not convinced about this overdate at all, though it'll be interesting to see your's, C44.

The fact the feature appears on different dies weakens the argument a bit. The inverted 2 idea was interesting, excepting the even greater unlikelihood that an inverted 2 would've been mistakenly punched into multiple dies?

[Conor44]

Thanks guys sorry about the delay heres some larger clearer images of the obv and rev

image hosting

[Conor44]

Im convinced that there is no 3 over 0 error on this coin also

[IanB]

I have been having a think about the concentric circles and unless there are some marks on the edge that might indicate that it was held in a vice or chuck so that the

circles could be accidentally or intentionally cut into the metal for some reason, then its possible that they were put there due to the coin being squashed between something with these marks on which was transferred onto the coin through pressure. It could be that the coin just happened to be the right thickness to be used as a spacer for something that had a little bit of weight on it. 

Anyway just a guess on my part.

 

[Coinery]

Without overwhelming other evidence, I'd also say no, though it appears to be the same 'error' that's being reported as that overdate.

It's my thought that the 3 might have curled around much more on the freshly made die, but over a short period has become clogged and damaged, maybe even rusty (the general state of the dies shown are pretty poor overall). Then at some point a repair happened, quite possibly using the punch that makes up the tail of the 6 and 9 (could challenge the 9/0 variety too, if the original 6 and 9 weren't composite, but repaired with a new punch?), which was used to create a slightly different and lower line, which may have been intentional to make for a clearer looking 3?

Clear as mud I know! More likely a recut in my opinion.

[IanB]

So are you saying that you think that the circles are from the dies when the coin was stamped?

[Coinery]

No, I'm only talking about the overdate proposal. I personally think the circles are post mint damage.

[Conor44]

Just checked the rim and there's no indication of anything having gripped the coin. Also do you think the circles affect its value ?

C44

[IanB]

3 minutes ago, Conor44 said:

Just checked the rim and there's no indication of anything having gripped the coin. Also do you think the circles affect its value ?

C44

 

19 hours ago, Coinery said:

Yes, these massively affect the value of the coin. Massively!

You must have missed this earlier.

 

[Conor44]

Paid £173 for it, considering the circles- about right or over the top ?

[Peter]

Only you can decide on whether you like it and didn't over pay.Personally I couldn't ever want it.