Paulus

For me, both points are well made and contributors possibly coming from different standpoints. BRG, your coin posts and photography are second to none! For the record, I would like to share Peck's surprise at NGC's grade of AU details ... it's irrelevant how rare the coin is, or what damage there is to result in a full grade not being assigned ... the point is, in no way, shape or form could anyone consider this coin to be AU, surely? I think that is the point he was making!

My preferred option by far is at a coin fair, no postage, no commission, deal with the seller face to face. Yes, he (or she) is a dealer with profits and overheads to consider, but if you know the value of the coin you are after, and the price you are prepared to pay, it should be a level playing field.

I started a response to this and my browser crashed, sorry ... I will make a few observations, but I am not able to compare to the collector of yesteryear without research, and I suspect that you have already done that Rob! At the top end, I think many collectors (including myself) will consider themselves completely priced out of the market. For me, anything over £1k for a single coin is out of the question, which rules out most of the very top stuff. The inflation in prices for the most desirable coins seems to continue unabatedI would guess that for the average wage earner today certain coin prices are cheaper than they have ever been, relative to salary ... including Roman, hammered, and late G5 and G6 silver in particularSilver bullion price is at its lowest for 3-4 years which will help low grade collectorsThe internet has of course opened up the world of coin supply to coin demandThere is much less opportunity (in this country at least) to squirrel away collectable coins from change, than there was from our predecessorsThe availability of coins (via the internet) is surely at an all-time highNumber of collectors relative to past times, I have no idea! There are more and more coins being listed on-line than ever before, and we get lots of new members on the Forum, but serious collectors who join and attend clubs, attendance at coin fairs, I have no idea!Other Forum members will have far better insights I am sure!

And the last auction Iot I won (DNW) I paid 20% plus VAT. The question is then, where do dealers get their new stock from? Of course it will be from a variety of sources, but it can't be mainly from auction sales, so is it mainly from people selling their collections? Many dealers have a lot of new stock every month, I am intrigued! The market does not seem illiquid, quite the opposite, I have a feeling I am missing something obvious ...

BINs on eBay doubtless are priced as Rob suggests, auctions end up where they will. I would thoroughly recommend reputable dealers (there are many on this Forum) and coin fairs as Rob suggests

This topic is little more than me 'thinking out loud', and will come as nothing new to the experienced dealers and collectors on this brilliant Forum. I hope it is useful to some readers however. It is important to factor in the total cost of buying a coin at auction, since the 'hammer price' will be subject to commission + VAT, and postage, Buyers' commission varies from zero on platforms such as eBay, to up to 20% + VAT (so 24%) at traditional 'bricks and mortar' auctions such as DNW, ST James, London Coins, etc. Sellers' commission varies from 10% on eBay to up to 20% + VAT (so 24%) at traditional 'bricks and mortar' auctions. So, working on the 20% + VAT scenario (for both buying and selling), buying one or more lots at auction and selling them at a later date at an auction with the same fees, would require a mark-up of 62.5% on the hammer price, just to break even. This 62.5% 'mark-up' would apply to all lots bought and sold at auctions charging you 20% + VAT for buying and selling, and excludes P&P. Factoring in P&P costs, let's say £10 to have the winning lot sent to you, and £8 to send to auction for selling, then a single coin you bought at auction for £200 hammer would need to sell at a similar auction for £350 hammer just to get your money back!! And that doesn't take account of the cost of having your money tied up in the meantime, however you decide to account for that, (if at all). My workings (if they are wrong please shout)! Some logical questions and observations follow: If buying a coin to sell (in the short-term as a dealer, the medium-term as a collector who anticipates upgrading, or the longer term as an investment) it is vital to be aware of the 'hit' involved if buying at auctionBuying at coin fairs (much recommended) avoids all ancillary costs (travel apart), allows you to engage/negotiate with the seller, and will inevitably result in making contact with other collectorsTo what extent do people think that this 'built-in' 'inflation' to coin prices at auction contributes to the jaw-dropping hammered prices we are seeing for the top end at Heritage (for example)?I am relatively new to (serious) coin collecting (6 years now!) (by which I mean >10% of my spare time and >5% of my residual income (after bills etc) is spent on the hobby), am I right in thinking that 20% + VAT has been in place for the established auction houses for many years?I would imagine that a dealer that deals with an auction house on a regular basis would be able to negotiate the 20% down by quite a bit - otherwise it's a killer isn't it?I wonder if everyone appreciates that the 'dream' coin they have just won at auction would need to fetch > 62.5% hammer at the same auction house for them to break even (P&P aside) if they needed to sell it - reminds me of the 'hit' when driving a brand new car off the forecourt!Very interested in any responses

Such a difference isn't there between hammered and even early-early milled, where edges are concerned, in particular!

That's true Stu - do you think I'm being a bit harsh? Looks like a £80 ish coin to me, so £116 delivered is a tad too much?

Thanks John What we have there is a Buy It Now (BIN) item, rather than an auction. So the price (£110) is not a starting price, but the price you can buy it for. It costs nothing these days to list and re-list on eBay (I think I'm right in saying!), you only pay commission (seller's commission of 10% + a bit more to Paypal if used) if and when the coin sells. There are many sellers 'chancing their arm' listing coins as BIN items hoping that someone will take a bite - and why not, that's one of the main reasons for eBay's existence. The buyer pays no commission, but normally (although not always) pays for postage and packing. In my opinion the price of £110 would be reasonable if the grade was GVF as stated, however I would grade this coin somewhere around GF-NVF. Inflated grading is the norm on eBay I'm afraid.

Sparkey, generally speaking English milled silver coin prices have increased quite significantly over the last few years, but only in high and top grades (EF and above). VF and below have been fairly static. As TG says, sellers can ask what they want on eBay (or any market place), whether they list a starting price or reserve in an auction, or a BIN (Buy It Now) price, perhaps with offers invited. The only rough guide you would get from eBay is from realised prices (i.e. the price it sold for at the end of the auction (if it sold at all). Hope this helps - do you have the eBay reference number or a link to the page?

And bought slabbed as cleaned EF, scratches VF etc, un-slabbed and sold without these defects mentioned

I wouldn't touch them with Mrs Peter's bargepole!

I would dare anyone to challenge Rob in this area, you won't get a better response anywhere!

Yes just a smidge Arthur! Thing is these days it costs nothing to set a start or BIN price on eBay, so I think sellers start at even-more-unrealistic prices, they have nothing to lose!

This is my best type example, I would grade it very highly

And if you're a variety collector, getting all 4 kinds of 1887 shilling is fun. Not to mention 3 halfcrowns, 4 florins, 3 threepences, 3 double florins, and SEVEN sixpences. All 1887, all silver. Exactly Declan, and if you want any of those Jubilees in a different date, you will pay a premium! Let's hear it for 1887!

One of every denomination for every ruler Paulus, or coverage of all denominations across the whole range? Was just thinking good luck with the William IV crown One of every denomination for every ruler Paulus, or coverage of all denominations across the whole range? Was just thinking good luck with the William IV crown I limit my targets to coins issued for general circulation Damian (conveniently), but it is still very challenging!

If you love G3 copper Charlie, I am getting much enjoyment from picking up the odd token from 1790 onwards, when there was a massive shortage of copper coinage. Fantastic pieces of social history at affordable prices in decent grade IMO. To see some of the top grades brilliantly photographed look at this thread: http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8342-lets-see-your-copper-coins-tokens-or-medals/

By the time a weak strike has become VF, it's VF full stop. It just took less time to get there than a strong example. Couldn't agree more Peck, eye appeal is all for me, not really bothered whether the 'worn' appearance is down to weak strikes, worn dies, cabinet friction or whatever, it is what it is in the eye of the beholder

I got this 1806 (I don't think 1807 is any rarer) halfpenny for £20 or so recently, if that's any guide - respectfully it is a better grade than the one in your pics, perhaps GVF?

Nothing wrong with 1887 silver, that's where you will find the best grade for your money if you're a type collector!

I am a type collector myself, currently trying to limit myself to one very pleasing example of every silver denomination from Charles II to George VI ... trick is, what do you call a type? Of course I have a smattering of hammered, gold, copper, bronze, decimal, foreign, tokens etc to keep it varied and more interesting to look through, and getting increasingly drawn to hammered! I am just glad I am not a date run or micro-variety collector, I think I would hate that, but each to their own! All photos and questions welcomed

A very warm welcome Charlie, you will find some very good advice on here and some interesting and valuable reading, enjoy the hobby! Do you have a focus for your new collection? You will find this web site 'http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/' a useful starting place, along with this Forum! Unless this coin is some scarce variety, it is common and grades around Fine (F), and would cost around £5-£10 to buy one like it

Oh, and Thin Lizzy at the Lewisham Odeon, that was one of the best!