Peckris

Somewhere I still have a Coin Monthly from around 1970 where a dealer is advertising a BU 1932 and 1934 for £125 the pair. That's probably near £1000 in today's money.

Actually it's quite true that Britannia is slimmer on the 1797 penny. Too many pies or was she 'in the family way'? Not to mention "old big head" on the obverse!

I disagree. I attended my first W&W auction in 1997 when prices were VERY conservative (coins were only just beginning to move out of their long stagnation). Yet even then, estimates were something you took with a large pinch of salt, but there was always the "What if...?" thought at the back of your mind, a kind of hope that took you to the sale "just in case". So I do believe estimates are pitched low deliberately to encourage bidding. Peck I actually work as a consultant for one auction house already on coin cataloguing and I'm telling you that an estimate is supposed to be a realistically achievable price on a lot. That is the accepted norm in auctioneering. If W and W apply "come and buy me's" they are the exception not the norm. We're probably arguing about semantics. When I say "low", I mean the very bottom end of what you're calling "realistically achievable" (i.e. if it's a rainy day, hardly anyone turns up, and there's no collectors in the room). There's no way they will ever be "not conservative".

Usually unexpected wear like this is due to it having been kept in a purse or a pocket for an extended period of time with the rest of the loose change (and people used a lot more of it in those days). 10 years in those conditions doesn't do anything for the grade! LOL true!

the 1889 shilling is the rare one with the Jubilee head on, at 23mm it would be a shilling Only if it's the small head. The larger JH is only worth what the other dates are.

Good - that's a nice mixed group of items. It's best to see what interests you, and buy widely when you're starting out, then decide later what you want to 'major' on. But remember - condition is the most important thing : it's more important than rarity. A worn rare coin might be worth only £2 - £3. Whereas a run-of-the-mill Victorian shilling might be worth scrap only if worn, but around £200 in top grade (just as an example). You could do a lot worse than buy just two books to start you off : Collectors Coins GB (the 2011 edition will be out in a month or two), and The Grading Guide to British Coins. Both can be bought through this forum and will teach you a lot about coins, varieties, and condition.

With cleaning, I would go for about £20-£25 on a good day. They are interesting coins but quite common ones (I've got no less than four in Fine-VF), so Palves, tell your friend to keep his money in his pocket and shop around. Just one word of warning, they do get rather expensive in the very highest grades. sound advice Agreed. Though if your friend really COULD get it for as little as £25 and allow it to tone back over time, it might be worth persisting with. The rim is exceptional and believe me, that's a big issue with those coins. Such a damn shame about the cleaning.

Sure. But perhaps slow down a bit with the quickfire rat tat tat of questions? Tell us a bit about yourself - what have you started collecting, what types and series of coins float your boat, what are you specifically looking for? Etc.

I disagree. I attended my first W&W auction in 1997 when prices were VERY conservative (coins were only just beginning to move out of their long stagnation). Yet even then, estimates were something you took with a large pinch of salt, but there was always the "What if...?" thought at the back of your mind, a kind of hope that took you to the sale "just in case". So I do believe estimates are pitched low deliberately to encourage bidding.

LMAO. I was very sad to learn (especially having watched the old Captain as a kid) that "Master Bates" and "Seaman Staines" were just urban legends and never actually existed in any language edition of Pugwash. Although in football, it was no urban legend that Seaman was lobbed from 25 yards on occasions

Hmm, so the next time Man U are 1:1 at 90, and need a winner, they won't be able to give them 12 minutes injury time !!! No, they'll just get Rooney to score an "impossible" goal. Grrr.

Agreed. Such pennies were a staple of the 'dreaded auction lot'. You know the one "...huge collection of (mainly) 20th Century coins. In three large cardboard boxes." The one where you thought "Shall i? Nah, sod it, life's too short." I should have done what you did. Instead I thought, "Go on then...." and ended up with an awful lot! Actually I had a good excuse because for 10 years I ran an arcade with my collection of old penny machines at my daughter's school Christmas Fayre. I let the kids take winnings away and got through a few hundred each year. So I had to replenish my stock!

It was interesting, yes. Inevitably, collectors will think more and more in investment terms given the recent steep rise in coin values. Yes, interesting, but I couldn't help think of the three times previous we have "been here before" - once in the late 60s with all those "investment opportunities" involving mint-sealed bags of 1967 pennies etc, then in the mid-70s when inflation sent investors flocking towards alternative forms, and then again in the early 80s with that silver fiasco and all those auction highs for rare coins. I can't help feel that, like property prices, the "eBay phenomenon" (i.e. prices craze) won't last forever, and that it's always best to enjoy our collections, while at the same time trying to avoid paying top dollar during a rising market. Remember the long stagnation from the mid-80s to the late 90s? That's what worries me, assembling my bun collection at possibly the height of a coin bull market. Not that it dissuades me from buying ~ in the slightest. So it can't worry me that much That's the spirit!

I have that very medal - in top condition of course. But, it's at least Crown sized not 25mm!! So though it looks like it, by the size, it can't be. And I'd echo the obvious question : how did it get so worn? They produced 2 different sizes Peck, the shilling size for peasants and the big boy for rich men, like yourself! Just checked up and it was indeed by T (Thomas?) Brock. Ah that explains it And might also explain the wear - perhaps someone in the late 19th/early 20th Century, a time when "a bob were reet proper money" decided to spend it and Mr Busy Shopkeeper never noticed it wasn't a proper shilling? Mebbe?

Agreed. Such pennies were a staple of the 'dreaded auction lot'. You know the one "...huge collection of (mainly) 20th Century coins. In three large cardboard boxes." The one where you thought "Shall i? Nah, sod it, life's too short."

Um, lami what? My penny just clacks when you drop it on a table, instead of ringing. Otherwise it looks perfectly normal.

Up North, wasn't that put there to keep the scots out. Wot? U mean norf of Watford Gar? Strewf cor blimey do me a favour guvnor. I think you will find that the North was put here to protect all the Southern woofties from the marauding tribes in the North, West and Scandanavia. Any good officer knows that you always put the hard lads at the front in a fight

Yes, but Crowns weren't a circulating coin then, despite the commemorative issues. You most likely would never have received say, a Churchill Crown, in your change. Well you're right, the Crown as Crown wasn't a circulating coin - simply a commem as you say. And so it continued to be (same size, same value, just different name) starting in 1972. So technically, it didn't disappear as such - was there even an order in Parliament for its demonetisation? I've long held that it could not have been, for several reasons : 1. It occurred for only a short period in 1971 (infaltionary pressures are either longer term, or really dramatic e.g. oil prices) 2. 'Rounding up' couldn't have affected more than the last 1/2p of any price - so the effect would have been trivial 3. The regional Weights & Measures people, and local authorities, were very watchful to prevent price abuse 4. Natural competition would have made those who 'rounded down' more frequented and successful than those who 'rounded up' 5. The policies of the Heath Government were naturally inflationary, e.g. money supply and wages policies 6. The Arab/Israeli wars, price of oil, etc, had a far far greater effect 7. .Strikes also caused a lot of inflation

Yes - over £100 is far too rich for that coin. Treated kindly and allowed to 'tone back' over a long period of time, it will be a nice specimen, but for now?..only at the right price.

It was interesting, yes. Inevitably, collectors will think more and more in investment terms given the recent steep rise in coin values. Yes, interesting, but I couldn't help think of the three times previous we have "been here before" - once in the late 60s with all those "investment opportunities" involving mint-sealed bags of 1967 pennies etc, then in the mid-70s when inflation sent investors flocking towards alternative forms, and then again in the early 80s with that silver fiasco and all those auction highs for rare coins. I can't help feel that, like property prices, the "eBay phenomenon" (i.e. prices craze) won't last forever, and that it's always best to enjoy our collections, while at the same time trying to avoid paying top dollar during a rising market. Remember the long stagnation from the mid-80s to the late 90s?

I don't know what the fuss is about (I think 400 was joking!). We often do give our opinion here when it's asked for. That's a twopence, not a penny. There doesn't look anything wrong with the design as far as I can see (though if you had compared it with a good picture of a 1797 penny, that might have made you suspicious - apart from the dramatic difference in size, there are small but subtle differences between the two denominations). The main thing wrong with it, is it's been cleaned (hence the suspicious colour)!! Presumably to give the impression of a higher grade. It is in fact barely VF in my opinion. However,in its favour, it has an excellent rim with little or no damage, lacking the usual knocks which is highly unusual. And the legend is good too. Without cleaning it could easily be a £50 - £75 coin, but the cleaning would knock that back quite a bit.

You're right to feel uneasy. It just doesn't 'feel' kosher at all. The colour on the obverse is iffy - looks like (perhaps) lead given a coppery coating. The date is suspiciously blurry (normally one of the clearest parts of those issues). And in places it has a cast look about it. I'm not sure I'd want to risk big bucks on it.

Check your Irish florin dates. Some from the 1940s are VERY rare indeed.

Yes, welcome Rose

I have that very medal - in top condition of course. But, it's at least Crown sized not 25mm!! So though it looks like it, by the size, it can't be. And I'd echo the obvious question : how did it get so worn?