1949threepence

Apologies for the industrial language, but I do think it's otherwise funny and just about sums up facebook at times.

Bob, I think there's a lot in what you say. Those ongoing unofficial melts, plus the lost coins mentioned by Jerry, probably account for a very substantial percentage of the bronze still existing after the RM official melt. ETA: I'd also bet that a faIr number of rare varieties have slipped through the net, due to loss of concentration when checking large numbers of coins. It'd be a lot easier to miss varieties when checking for a very few amongst a large number, than it would be when checking and classifying every single one, as Court did. So in conclusion, I'd estimate that from the accumulated losses <1% of Court's original estimates now remain extant. Considerably less than 1% in many instances.

I definitely think that applies to the F169, where the toothed border is often so worn, it's impossible to determine the type, either way.

Not to mention those eye wateringly huge buyer premiums.

Glad I've already got one, Terry. I've seen it evidenced a few times just how well read this forum is by non members (and probably members who never post).

Isn't there just.......you going for it, Jon?

Very nice, Terry, and what a bargain. Have you got a pic of the reverse as well?

In fact, let us narrow it down to pennies in particular. If we assume that Court's estimated mintage figures are correct, and we also accept a generous reclamation rate of 90%, that theoretically leaves the following current figures of extant pennies for the following varieties:- 1903 open date - estimated mintage 37,300 - potentially still in existence 3,730 (extremely unlikely to be anywhere near as high) 1905 F 160 - estimated mintage 3,231, 359 - potentially still in existence 323,136 (plausible, but unlikely to be that high) 1908 F164 - estimated mintage 1,166,550 - potentially still in existence 116,655 (plausible, but unlikely to be that high) 1908 F164A estimated mintage 55, 550 - potentially still in existence 5,555 (extremely unlikely to be anywhere near as high) 1909 F169 - estimated mintage 23,200 - potentially still in existence 2,320 (almost certainly more would have come to light of this extremely rare and sought after variety) 1911 Gouby X - estimated mintage 188,000 - potentially still in existence 18,800 (extremely unlikely to be anywhere near as high) 1913 F175 - estimated mintage 1,733,500 - potentially still in existence 173,350 (extremely unlikely to be anywhere near as high) 1913 F176 - estimated mintage 948,750 - potentially still in existence 94,875 (extremely unlikely to be anywhere near as high) So that leaves three possibilities: 1) The reclamation rate was much higher than 90%: 2) Court's figures are incorrect: 3) There are many thousands sitting out there somewhere, still waiting to be discovered. I find it difficult to accept that Court's figures are that much out, as he was working from a substantial pre melt population, which should be representative of the whole population then still in existence. I also think it highly improbable that there are so many thousands of the rare varieties still sitting out there, given that nearly 50 years have elapsed, several generations have passed, and surely most jam jar/kitchen drawer/garage collections would have been looked at by now, and profits turned, wherever possible. That just leaves one possibility - that the RM withdrawal rate of pennies was in fact, ultimately much higher than 90%. Maybe as high as over 99% in many cases, especially on varieties not at that point well known. Moreover, given what I've alluded to previously on this forum, that a fair percentage of F175 & 176, for example, are high grade, it would suggest that they had previously been collected and put away by default, purely as date types. Their much rarer significance having not been known about by the collector at the time. Very interesting topic and no easy answers.

Further crossings out. Now just four months of the original eleven still outstanding.

You've got a cyclone right now in Western Australia haven't you?

Thanks - I hadn't realised they went earlier. Elementary, but nonetheless very useful info for those who simply didn't know. As you say there are many complicating factors, not least the staggered demonetisation which ultimately took place over many years. It's basically down to guesswork. Although as @Mr T suggests, maybe the RM do have some figures in their annual reports from that time. Pennies would be especially interesting in this regard.

Court estimated that something like 77% had been reclaimed by 31st March 1972, and although that was specifically in relation to pennies, one would assume by logical extension that similar percentages applied to all other immediately withdrawn denominations. Although people would probably have been in more of a hurry to exchange (or spend pre 15.2.71) halfcrowns, than pennies. My own view is that probably something like 85% to 90% of pre decimal currency was eventually reclaimed and melted down by the Royal Mint. But that's purely an inspired guess. It may be +/- 8 of say 86%. Probably a much higher percentage of some than others went for melt. Many will have been held in collections. Many more would have been shoved away in drawers, old clothes, jam jars etc, and forgotten about. Any other opinions on this question? I think it's an important one as it may provide some clue as to how many of certain dates/varieties remain extant in the present day.

Hmmm, bizarre. I wonder how many times a year it was polished to cause that degree of wear.

As you say, insulting. Not to mention supercilious and breathtakingly condescending.

Pompous idiots. How many of the population actually give 2 wotsits either way? They just see a 50p and the vast majority never even look more closely than that. I hope they were tongue in cheek remarks.

You mean in the sense that "BRITT: OMN: REGINA" was still on the 1953 coinage specifically, but the "BRITT OMN" disappeared from 1954 onwards? I assume they dropped it because it was the wrong meaning - although I don't know for absolute certain. Could certainly have been replaced by just "BRITT REGINA" or a contracted version of that. As per Victoria with "BRITT REG" - "Queen of all the Britons". As far as no national markings like "GREAT BRITAIN", we never really have had. "BRITT" was probably the furthest it got. I suppose the reason is historic, but could be interpreted as either self important or self effacing, depending on how you view it.

"BRITT OMN" translated from the Latin, means "King of all the Britons". Therefore won't be on current coinage. Obviously wasn't on Victoria's either. But was on the coinage of the intervening KIngs, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII & George VI coins. When Charles accedes to the throne, it'll be on again. We will never see "IND IMP" again though.

Which lot No is it Richard? I couldn't find it.

It can be whichever way you want it to be.

Yes. Another interesting one is 16th August 1991 - expressed as 16/8/91, it reads exactly the same upside down OK, yes I admit to being a sad git with too much time on his hands.

Actually that's not a palindrome as it doesn't read the same backwards as forwards.

Those high minimum overnight temperatures: 25 degrees - as standard. Without air con that would be unbearable if you weren't used to it. Although I suppose if you live in that kind of heat all the time, the body adapts and gets used to it. The record over night minimum in this country is about 24 degrees in early August 1990. We haven't (yet) seen a 40 degrees by day, but I bet we will at some point fairly soon. In this country there'd be a medical emergency declared with those kind of temperatures, especially with the high humidity. I don't like extreme heat, but there are times I'd willingly swap to that for a day or two, given the procession of miserable, depressing dark wet days we have in the UK at this time of year. I know the light is improving a bit now, but it's always a slow process. Leaving for work in the dark, and returning home at "night" in the dark. In December it's dark before 4pm.

Definitely no more than fine for me.

Indeed. Your rarest pennies website seems to be known far and wide, Richard. I've seen it authoritatively quoted both on e bay and some facebook coin pages, as "the rare pennies website shows only 12 photos" (or some such).

I don't recall. If he did he's a very lucky guy. Last active 8th November 2018. So no idea where he's got to.