Madness

In the process of buying two coins from Michael recently we exchanged a couple of emails a day. In the process he revised the grade of the 1787 shilling down from pAS to EF+, indicative of his current grading activities. Despite what the website says, he seems to be actively involved in all aspects of the business. I recently asked him to keep me in mind if he ever found a "1-over-upside-down-1" 1787 shilling, and he stated that he wasn't actively looking to increase his stock. So, yes, he seems to be semi-retired and living/working in Reading.

In case anyone is interested, here are my sources of images for I/D 1787 sixpences, some of which are for sale: https://www.gbclassiccoins.co.uk/shop/sixpences/1787-george-iii-early-milled-silver-sixpence-no-hearts-near-ef-2/ https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Great-Britain-1787-George-111-Sixpence-Without-Hearts-EF-gVF-/142907377281?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137 (sold on eBay apparently and so link redirects you. You have to click "see original item") https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1787-GEORGE-III-SILVER-SIXPENCE-WITH-HEARTS-GOOD-VERY-FINE-OR-BETTER-CONDITION/152522895551?hash=item238312b0bf:g:kMkAAOSwVm5Y~dBd The overstrike isn't very clear here, but the other marks of the same die are evident. Pretty confident this is an example on that basis. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1787-KING-GEORGE-III-GREAT-BRITAIN-SILVER-SHILLING-AND-SIXPENCE-/253803827617?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137 (Again, this has apparently sold on eBay and the link redirects. Click on "see original item". https://townhallcoins.com/products/gb-1787-sixpence-vf https://www.baldwin.co.uk/coins/great-britain/british-patterns-and-proofs/george-iii-rare-proof-sixpence-1787.html (Described as proof, but this is just a heavy-flan test piece in my opinion) https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-george-iii-proof-sixpence-1787-/a/3032-31906.s (again, heavy-flan piece, not proof) Add to these the coin that I purchased from Michael, the "heavy-flan example" in the first post and the link to the DNW auction in the first post, that makes ten examples in total. I made a mistake in my first post, as I remembered having come across another heavy-flan example, making three of these and seven circulation coins. Another couple of points of interest are that the I/D obverse is always paired with the same reverse die. You can tell by the flaw on the "D" in the legend that's at the 2 o'clock position. I also suspect that the "8" in "1787" is upside down, but need to look into this further.

Thanks Jerry I used the money from my guinea sale to buy this 1787 shilling, which I won at the Davissons auction that just ended: https://davcoin.com/lot/e-auction-26-lot-89 Looking forward to expanding my 1787 sixpences as well (in time), including run of the mill varieties.

I thought so too @Michael-Roo The grading is Michael Gouby's, not mine. I trust his opinion more than my own, though.

I recently purchased a 1787 sixpence from Michael Gouby graded at aEF. I don't consider it to be the prettiest of pieces, but was attracted by an interesting detail: I'm sure it's very apparent to you that there is a funny curved line between the top and bottom of the first "I" in "III". I'm pretty confident that this is an overstrike of sorts. My theory is that the die maker started to strike "Dei" straight after "Georgius" in a momentary lapse of concentration. Immediately noticing his error he corrected it by filling in the curved section of the "D", leaving an "I". In the process of filling he missed a very small fraction running along the edge of the "D"s curve, which resulted in the small, thin raised line you see. I was encouraged to do some research and so over the course of a couple of days I looked at several hundred images of 1787 sixpences. Basically, I looked at every reference and image to the 1787 sixpence that Google brought up directly and then some. Out of these I found nine definite matches with the same issue. If the sample I looked at was representative of the entire issue, slightly more than 2% have this identifying feature. Not only was the I/D overstrike there, but each coin shared several other anomalies indicating they were all from the same die: Die pitting to the left of the hair ribbon, die pitting in the corner of the mouth, a mark underneath the eyebrow and the precise position of the legend lettering. The 2% figure is consistent with the number of dies produced for the minting of the 1787 shilling (see the Manville/Gaspar article) . Coincidentally, this die was used to produce a (presumably) very small number of coins on a heavy pure silver flan. Here's one of the two examples I came across: In one of these two examples it was described as a proof. I don't think this is the case. Although the edge is plain, there is no toothing around the edge as there are in the September proofs struck by Pingo. Moreover, there is bifurcation of the bottom of the lettering. This all indicates that the coin was struck without a collar (proofs were made with a collar) and the edge wasn't milled as you would expect with a circulation coin. An odd hybrid. I can't imagine that a die in poor condition like this would ever be used for a proof either: The pitting of the die; The D/I; The error on the "E" of "Dei" (which seems to have been corrected on the circulated sixpences produced from this die). There doesn't appear to have been any special preparation of the blank's surface either. There's no way that this is a proof. I'm only very new to numismatics, but here's my theory of the existence of a heavy flan struck with this die. The end of the order was approaching, but the mint was running short on workable dies. They dug out a die from the metaphorical bottom draw that had been put there because of the D/I and "E" errors, but it had accumulated some surface blemishes (small rust pits maybe). Wanting to test whether they could use it, a few test strikes were made using a thicker blank they had to hand so as to differentiate it for the circulation coins. No need to mill the edge as it wasn't meant to be used. Somehow is escaped being melted down again and escaped into the wild. Do you think my theory has any possibility of holding water? Anyway, I bought the first coin pictured from Michael for 55 GBP. I was tempted to bid on this sixpence currently listed for the upcoming DNW auction. It has an estimate of 200-300 GBP, which is out of my reach at the moment. Very happy to have the example I bought from Michael, though.

Well, my coin collection has officially started, if in fact two coins constitute a collection. Both of these was purchased from Michael Gouby. The 1787 shilling is a thing of beauty, graded by Michael as EF+. A faint scratch on the obverse prevented him from selling it as "practically as struck". This is the less common variety without the stop of George III's head. The second coin is a 1787 sixpence in EF? condition. It's obviously less visually-appealing than the shilling, but has an interesting flaw that I might bring up in another thread. Certainly worth having, at least for me. I was tempted to throw in the towel after my first experience, but I'm now officially hooked. Off to look at auction offerings! I've got some spare money from the guinea sale burning a hole in my pocket.

If you have a spare 45 minutes, listen to this. If you don't have a spare 45 minutes, you shouldn't be collecting coins! Takes me back to 1992, when I heard it for the first time as an 18 year old. I lived on a rural property and must have been the only one at home. Midnight on a balmy summer's evening. Sitting on the doorstep with Prokofiev blasting out. What a revelation that was.

The nays have it. I'll defer to years of wisdom and keep this.

That's what I get for following instructions given by a GPS.

I recently purchased a copy of the Rotographic publication "The Standard Guide to Grading British Coins". This is obviously a wonderful resource, but I've decided that I'll only be collecting early milled at this stage. As the book is no longer going to be useful to me I've decided to give it away, entirely unused except having been flicked through. You'll need to cover shipping. I'm in Australia, though, and shipping mightn't be cheap enough to make it worthwhile if you're in the UK. Good for fellow Aussies, though, if you don't already have a copy. Please let me know if you're interested.

My guestimate: Extremely fine This obverse has many imperfections, but they are almost all related to die deterioration in the form of wear, cracks and fill. There is only minimal wear to the coin itself. I find the toning a little puzzling. What are the marks that look like rust? Is it possible that the coin was in contact with a rusting metal surface and this stained the surface of the coin? Are the very small gouges "bag marks"?

I'M TIRED OF TEA!!

I'm a mule

When is a mule not a mule? When it's a little hoarse.

Here is the eBay listing from which the image was taken: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1787-GREAT-BRITAIN-925-Silver-NO-HEARTS-SIXPENCE-1-Year-TYPE-King-GEORGE-III/202408777702?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I've looked closer and compared to it to the September proof and an EF circulation sample. Many of the details appear "rounder", especially noticeable on the upper surface of the letters. Could die wear cause something like this, as it's certainly not related to wear.

The grade, assuming everything else is in order?

Can you elaborate? Is related to the toning?

My guestimate: aEF/EF

Yes. Could have been worse. Thanks Chris. Was tempted to chuck in the coin-collecting towel earlier, but I'm enjoying the research too much. The coins will be like small symbols/reminders of what I've learnt, as well as things of beauty in their own right. Great pathway into corners of history I've not explored or even considered.

I've just cleared up this issue with Michael. He said that "bright" does not mean dipped for the coins he sells and that he would mention any evidence of cleaning or dipping when describing the coin. Given his reputation and demeanor in my dealings with him I believe him entirely. Made final payment for a 1787 shilling and sixpence and am looking forward to the arrival of same. A quote from his email: As I always say to every collector “I will always give you a full refund for the coin if you are unhappy for any reason and wish to return it” ! Needless to say I'll be buying from him again as the experience has been far more pleasant than the baptism of fire I got through eBay.

Is "bright" a euphemism for "dipped" as per this example being sold by Michael Gouby? http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/sx1787WH (3).htm