Madness

A couple of thoughts have occurred to me: 1. Coins are three dimensional objects, but two-dimensional images capturing them can be hard to interpret due to differences with lighting, camera angle, shadows, reflections etc. Is anyone aware of the application of 3D imaging technology to create a computer model of a coin's surfaces? 2. Has machine-learning technology been applied to die analysis? It should be possible for AI to recognise and contextualise features on coins (such as the position of letters in relation to one another) and compare specimens from a large sample in order to catergorise them into being the products of the same die. Sure, there would be complications like wear and "touch-up" engraving, but it's possible that either AI could learn to account for this, or the AI could do the grunt work while a human interprets the results. Pretty keen to hear your experiences and research.

Two songs about rats. As strange as it sounds, Michael Jackson and Mozart share the experience of having been exploited prodigies.

Down the rabbit hole again! I've started to investigate the dies used to produce the 1787 sixpence with the intention of collecting one example of each die (over time). In the past three days I've built a data base of images from 171 examples, hopefully with many more to come. My target is 500 sample images and I hope this isn't optimistic. Here are a few preliminary observations about the reverse dies. There are four primary families of dies: With semee of hearts in Hanoverian Shield and without serifs on the "7"s in the date With semee of hearts in Hanoverian Shield and with serifs on the "7"s in the date Without semee of hearts in Hanoverian Shield and without serifs on the "7"s in the date Without semee of hearts in Hanoverian Shield and with serifs on the "7"s in the date In the overwhelming majority of instances the Hibernian harp contains 6 strings. However, I've come across the following: A. 5 examples of with-hearts/without-serif-7 coins that have 7 strings (just under 3% of sample to date) B. 3 examples of without-hearts/without-serif-7 coins that have 7 strings (about 1.8% of sample) C. 1 example of with-hearts/with-serif-7 coin that has 7 strings (about 0.6% of sample) All of the examples in group A belong to the same die. At least 2 examples of those in group B are from the same die, while the jury is out on the third example. I strongly suspect that all coins in groups A and B are from the same die. My reasoning? Firstly, the absence of the semee-of-hearts was a mistake recognised and rectified part way through the run. As with the shillings, the hearts were hand-engraved, presumably on existing dies, to correct the error. There are about three die flaws that you can see developing across the coins in groups A and B, becoming more obvious as the die ages: Die fill in two letters and the wearing of the left lower serif in "1" of the date. I'm noticing generally much more die wear on 1787 sixpences than on 1787 shillings. Given that a similar quantity of each denomination was struck, I suspect that there were, perhaps, significantly fewer dies used. This is just a hunch. I'll see if can find any records indicating the number of dies produced as this information is available for the shillings. The number of dies produced needn't be the same as the number of dies used, though. Further updates to come.

A few options: Singing Yaks' Organisation Strident Youthful Occultists Splendid Yodelling Oncologists Salubrious Yam Omelets Slimy Yesterday's Oatmeal Sceptical Yearly Optimists See Your Optometrist

I'm in the early stages of conducting die studies of 1787 shillings and 1787 sixpences. Do you have any examples of these coins? It would be awesome if you could post images of these in this thread, both obverse and reverse. High resolution scans are preferable to photos for this purpose, although I'd be very happy with whatever is most convenient for you. By way of thanks, provided you are interested, I'll let you know where your coin/s fit in to the results.

Note to self: Die study methodology It could be helpful to make an attempt at a preliminary grouping of dies for both shillings and sixpences. This could be accomplished on the obverse by literally joining together the dots, forming a quadrilateral. By comparing the the side-lengths and angles within the quadrilateral there may be sufficient differences to form "families" of dies, even if not individual dies. Using a dot would be preferable to a letter in at least one regard, as it is easier to find the centre of a dot than locate a reference point on a letter that might have been disfigured by wear or fill. Perhaps it could even be possible to do this by joining together only three dots and measuring angles and lengths of a triangle. It would certainly be less time consuming as the measurements and mathematics become simpler. This method would allow the use of a simple grid system to define positions (as opposed to circular position and distance from centre) and wouldn't require the rotation of images to standardise positions. The correlation of three/four angles and three/four distances would be sufficient to define the die family. Consider the use of a vector based graphics tool for this as opposed to GIMP. Once grouped into "families" further differentiation can be made between its members to find individual dies.

I'm beginning to wonder about the possibility that the reverses of the 1787 sixpences were manufactured differently to the shillings. The consensus is that the shilling dies were created from fully-formed punches that already had all details in place, including lettering. I'm observing features of the sixpence reverse that suggest each die was built up from a number of punches with different design elements. I've noticed the following: 1. Alignment of lettering differs in at least a few examples, but I've not examined this closely yet 2. In some examples the 7's of the date have serifs while others don't 3. The rotational position of the circle in the centre of the garter star varies In the sixpence pictured above there are details entirely missing at the top of the uppermost two crowns and yet the letters above them are still visible. This suggests to me that when the die was being created the "crown-punch" (if, in fact, such a thing existed) was struck at a slight angle, resulting in coins with a relatively high relief at the base/corner and details missing at the top/opposite-corner. I'd need to find a. other examples of this die to confirm, and b. compare the precise position of each of the design elements across as many dies as I can find. I'm going to buy this coin. At 59 GBP the price seems OK. By way of comparison Michael Gouby has an EF "no-hearts/serif-7" example for 95 GBP. It would be good to have this coin in my hand and look at it more closely. In addition, the details in GIII's hair and the Hibernian harp are amongst the best I've seen on a 1787 sixpence so far. I've decided not to bid on that I/D sixpence being auctioned by DNW, which means I've got some money to spend on examples of other dies.

Note to self: To fully describe locations on a coin face it's necessary to use both circular position in degrees and distance out from the centre or in from the rim. Sector & segment differentiation and alignment of a figure/letter/number could also be of some use in die analysis.

My guestimate: aEF Generally well struck coin, with the possible exception of portions of segment between 300 degrees and 60 degrees on the reverse, most notably the crowns. This, though, could be a punching issue rather than a striking issue. The of rounding of laurel leaves suggest die wear, not coin wear. Older die also suggested by pitting and rounding of lettering. Flattening of shirt frill suggests coin wear. Reverse die is of the "no-hearts/serifs-on-7's" variety. Possibility of pre-strike adjustment marks on reverse. Could @Rob or someone please critique by observations and grading? Thanks! Some weird, silicon-like marks at 0 degrees on obverse and garter star on reverse. Anyone know what these might be?

Thanks @Rob My grading was influenced by the lack of detail/flattening in the curls of GIII's hair. Do you think this is die fill, not coin wear?

Never mind

I've changed my mind about Michael. He said he'd accept the return but was very snarky when I told him the reason for my request. Not at all friendly. Can't deal with any more stress from the situation, so I won't go ahead with the return. I'll either keep the sixpence or sell it. What's it worth in VF? 25 GBP?

My guestimate: gVF

1513 Here's a piece written by Robert Fayrfax (1464-1521). King Henry VIII's grandmother, Lady Margaret Beaufort, was his patroness for a while. Although I don't have a chronology of his works, the embedded Gloria from his Missa Albanus would almost certainly have still been in circulation as the style was still popular in England in 1513. His work is represented in the Eton choir book of 1510, which miraculously escaped the destructive zeal of the reformation. Not only are we musically richer for its survival, but the manuscript itself is a thing of beauty, magnificently and elaborately decorated, much like the music it surrounded.

You put me on to the Davissons coin I think, Jerry. Really appreciate your help and generosity in sharing information. Time will tell re the DNW auction, but I'm trying to sell some stuff on eBay to give myself a good shot.

I've initiated the return process @Sword and explained the reason for this to Michael. Thanks for the suggestion. If I'm going to have a coin like this, I don't want it to be just an ugly placeholder. I want to take pride in my collection. Disappointing, as return postage won't be cheap. Even people who are trustworthy make mistakes. I need to learn more about grading. Much more practice needed!

Never mind. I'd need to sell the sixpence I have to buy the sixpence I want. If I lost the auction I'd be left with no example of the I/D. Forget I said anything.

I'd like to identifying as many dies as I can for 1787 shillings and sixpences. Re the shilling, 122 obverse and 125 reverse dies were prepared (Manville & Gaspar). It should be possible to distinguish a large number of obverse dies using images found online. The legend positions of all are slightly different given that these were punched by hand. My proposed method would involve the following: Identify and download many good quality images of obverses as possible Resize the images so all examples share a common diameter Rotate the images as necessary so that George III's bust is in exactly the same position in all examples Superimpose a circluar grid which would allow me to determine at which point on the circle (measured in degrees) each letter falls Organise the coins by groups according to the position of the letters, each group the product of a different die It would also be theoretically possible to distinguish the fruit of different reverse dies. According to Manivlle and Gaspar, the position of reverse legend is consistent across all examples. Fine features such as the strings in the Hibernian harp and the hearts in the Hanoverian shield were added by hand. I've also noticed that there are slight variants in the rotated position of the circle in the centre of the garter star. Using these unique details die identification should be a possibility, but it certainly wouldn't be a walk in the park. My reason for this post is to ask for help with the photo editing. I've found a free alternative to Photoshop called "GIMP". Is anyone familiar enough with this to help me work out how to use it? Additionally, can anyone see any problems with the method I've proposed? "Why bother going to all this trouble?", I hear you ask. Well, frankly, it will provide a way to help me fill in some time in an enjoyable manner. Additionally, it would be nice to have a collection of 1787 shilling and sixpences that includes every extant die variety. I don't call myself "Madness" for nothing! King George III's mental malady was nothing compared to mine!

I'm contemplating bidding on the DNW I/D and am going to sell some stuff on eBay to fund it. This will include selling the example I bought from Michael. I paid 55 GBP for it described as aEF. Considering it's only VF, how much do you think I should list if for on eBay? What does Spink say? Do you think the idiosyncrasies should increase the amount I ask for it? How much should I bid for the DNW example? I guess all this stuff is unknown and unknowable.

Yes @Rob. I think I'll be talking to myself on this thread. I'll keep it going, though, as I find it fascinating to associate coins with other aspects of culture going on around it at the same time. Edit: If anyone's interested, feel free to post a coin and I'll find some music to go with it.

Post a picture of a coin and a link to one or more musical pieces that were written in the same year. I'll go first: 1787 Shilling - Made to order at the Tower Mint for the Bank of England. This is the "no dots on obverse" variation: Mozart - Eine Kleine Nachtmusic Mozart - Don Giovanni - Overture As an aside, my nickname at high school was "Mozart" because of my love of classical music and a desire to become a composer. One of these things has remained, although I did enter uni with this goal still in mind.

To be honest, I'm enjoying the research as much as the actual collecting, if not more. My wife is recognising this and has agreed to effectively double my hobby budget to the equivalent of 100 GBP per month. I'll be spending some of this on books. Have my eye on three at the moment: Bull - English Silver Coinage Since 1649 Peck - English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958 Spink - Coins of England & The United Kingdom - Pre-Decimal Issue Do you think these will be useful resources? Can you recommend any other "must-haves"? I was also able to track down a copy of Cooper's "The Art and Craft of Coinmaking: A History of Minting Technology" that I was able to borrow from the State Library of NSW. Slowly working my way through this. If I could find a copy at a reasonable price I'd probably buy this as well. The books will have to wait until next year. I've got my eye on two more coins from the September auctions and @Rob has kindly kept a "no-stops-at-date" 1787 Shilling that he has put aside for me until later in the year.

My first experience was buying a guinea graded by the eBay seller as good very fine. It was a piece of crap worth only its value in bullion. The research was part of an effort to ensure that I wasn't ripped off again. There are many trust worthy people here, but part of the learning process is learning to know who to trust. I appreciate all advice on this forum and thoroughly enjoy my interactions here. I've come to Pre-decimal to learn, which implies I trust you, which I do! Thanks everyone for all your help. 😊

Just want to make it clear that I didn't "discover" the overstrike. I saw the DNW auction listing, was interested and decided to investigate further at the suggestion of @Peckris 2. Just wanted to verify that it was a genuine overstrike, determine how rare it was and try to work out how much it was really worth. This hobby is teaching me to be less trusting of people. Hmm. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?